Me vs. Matt Flynn
 

6 Handed, I start the hand with 80x BB, Flynn has me covered. Stakes are low, players were trying to play right (at least the two in this hand)

I am dealt JJ UTG and make it 4x the BB. I get two callers behind me, one of them Mr. Flynn.

Flop 8h 6s 3h (~13x BB)

What's the best line? Do I back this with my stack?

In the event, I checked, matt bet 6x bb, I checkraise to 16x BB. I actually think this is one of the worst lines to take.

Turn 6d

I check, Matt goes all-in, I fold.

Rip it apart fellas.

Re: Me vs. Matt Flynn
 

You've got to start by potting it, then take it from there. Obviously it's a tricky situation to play.

CR'ing is bad because you're bloating the pot OOP with 1 pair, but you know that..

Re: Me vs. Matt Flynn
 

I call here. It appears to villian that you are on a re-steal with AK, that you didnt want to do a continuation bet into 4 players but when you saw his weak bet you figured he would fold if you raised. Turn comes low, since you have only 40 bb left and there's 40 in the pot the only sensible bet is all-in which he makes. I think you're ahead, because he doesnt expect you to call.

Edit: What turnip says below is another reason he doesnt expect you to call, if you did indeed have an overpair you would probably bet the turn.

Re: Me vs. Matt Flynn
 

are you currently playing fast or slow? checkraising the flop is bad (matt is very capable of blowing you off your hand if the pot is large), but not betting the turn seems worse to me.

--turnipmonster

Re: Me vs. Matt Flynn
 

[ QUOTE ]
are you currently playing fast or slow? checkraising the flop is bad (matt is very capable of blowing you off your hand if the pot is large), but not betting the turn seems worse to me.

--turnipmonster

[/ QUOTE ]


I completely agree with this: my checkraise defines my hand very narrowly as a vulnerable overpair, which does not want to see a turn. He can blow me off this pretty easily plus mix in having the hand just enough to make it EV neutral.

Re: Me vs. Matt Flynn
 

one can of guinness:
$2.64

playing nutbar on $25 nl:
$84

[ QUOTE ]
Stakes are low, players were trying to play right (at least the two in this hand)

[/ QUOTE ]: priceless


gimme the hand number i'll let you know what i had.

matt

Re: Me vs. Matt Flynn
 

Before Matt responds, let me just guess that he had something like 57os.

I think Matt posts 3 of these buyins as blinds in some games...

Re: Me vs. Matt Flynn
 

Weak, Dave.

What did you put him on? You played the hand from square one like you were losing, never really giving yourself a chance to win. I don't see the value in your line. Care to explain?

Seriously, reading the post it seems like you didn't want to get called preflop, and once you did you immediately resigned. Did the fact that Matt Flynn plays bigger than you do scare you out of playing the hand normally?

The Doc

Edited to be more insulting [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

Re: Me vs. Matt Flynn
 

Your best bet to get MF's money is to just wait for him in the parking lot.

Re: Me vs. Matt Flynn
 

Drat, if you called I was going to really like your line.

Oh well.

In 100x games, many people limp JJ UTG. This is especially true if you are going to chicken out when put to the test by LAG opposition. I mean, you have a strong hand, hit a good flop, made one agressive move and bailed. You might as well have been bluffing, right?

-muz

Re: Me vs. Matt Flynn
 

[ QUOTE ]
I mean, you have a strong hand, hit a good flop, made one agressive move and bailed. You might as well have been bluffing, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Very well put.

I also think Wayfare put his opponent on WAY too narrow a range of hands. IMO he gave up this hand when he checked the turn.

The Doc

Re: Me vs. Matt Flynn
 

Which one was Matt?

Re: Me vs. Matt Flynn
 

just one can?

I put you on the nut low draw. historically I suck at figuring out what you have so the next time we play I'm just going to try to get my chips in the middle first, that way you at least will fold every now and then [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

Results
 

Matt had K6o.

Doesn't matter what card comes off on the turn -- if it ain't a jack, I'm probably not playing. The fact he had the best hand is incidental.

I needed to pot it on the flop, or limp preflop and take it from there.

Re: Me vs. Matt Flynn
 

[ QUOTE ]
just one can?

[/ QUOTE ]

of guinness, yes. ;-)

[ QUOTE ]
I put you on the nut low draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

my hand wasn't that good.

[ QUOTE ]
historically I suck at figuring out what you have so the next time we play I'm just going to try to get my chips in the middle first, that way you at least will fold every now and then [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

[/ QUOTE ]

what is this thing, "folding"?

matt

Re: Results
 

[ QUOTE ]
Doesn't matter what card comes off on the turn -- if it ain't a jack, I'm probably not playing. The fact he had the best hand is incidental.

[/ QUOTE ]

yep. it did not matter what card came off. i know what you have; you don't know what i have; and you've shown a lack of commitment.

what simply does not happen in pokerstars or party 5-10n/pl is the hyperaggression that forces everyone to play a high variance game and levels the playing field considerably (assuming the aggressors aren't nuts). i have played many a hand the same way in $5-10 and made a lot of money doing it, plus when i get called and lose or suck out it looks great.

matt

Re: Results
 

Hi Matt,

[ QUOTE ]
yep. it did not matter what card came off. i know what you have; you don't know what i have; and you've shown a lack of commitment.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is where I guess I get carried away in the $1000s. When I feel I'm up against a thinking, aggressive player like you, and I've played my hand like Wayfare up to that point (usually because I sometimes slip back into a default mode that contains some of my old lines; a symptom of multi-tabling), I expect you to try that, and I'm very inclined to call you with a hand as big as JJ. Is this just suicide?

Re: Results
 

[ QUOTE ]

or limp preflop and take it from there.

[/ QUOTE ]
In a 6max game is open limping with JJ reasonable or are you just considering it because of the player sitting behind you.

Re: Me vs. Matt Flynn
 

I didn't want to start a separate thread for this hand, but it seems semi-on-topic. I'd appreciate a reply or two.

This is from the same game, and seems somewhat similar to the hand being discussed. (Or at least close...different table, but same night of 2+2 25NL shenanigans.) Villain in this hand is better than me, and has shown reasonable aggression so far. He's also just slowplayed AA preflop and lost to a set, but I doubt $25 will leave him tilting [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]. We start the hand with 50xBB, not the 80xBB from the hand that started this thread. I think by this point in the game I've fully established my weak-tight image, and he's probably been around long enough to notice. I never thought I was behind, and I instacalled on the turn. Assuming I think I'm ahead on the turn, I'm wondering if this one should play out differently since I only have the pot left in my stack.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.5 BB (10 handed) converter

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

<font color="#C00000">CO ($25)</font>
Button ($50.25)
SB ($46.8)
BB ($89.16)
UTG ($26.94)
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($24.25)</font>
UTG+2 ($69.85)
MP1 ($45)
MP2 ($20.7)
MP3 ($31.2)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $0.75.
UTG calls $0.50, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $2.5</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, CO (poster) calls $2, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, UTG calls $2.

Flop: ($8.50) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $5</font>, CO calls $5, UTG folds.

Turn: ($18.50) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets $17.25 (All-In)</font>, Hero calls $16.75 (All-In).

River: ($52.50) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: $52.50

Results:
Hero has Ts Td (one pair, tens).
CO has 6c 8d (one pair, sixes).
Outcome: Hero wins $52. CO wins $0.50.

Re: Results
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

or limp preflop and take it from there.

[/ QUOTE ]
In a 6max game is open limping with JJ reasonable or are you just considering it because of the player sitting behind you.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's reasonable, although raising is likely a more popular option. As long as you're not going to have too much faith in an unimproved hand postflop, it's fine.

With a superior player sitting behind you, both options have their advantages and disadvantages. Raising gives you a biggish pot out of position, and limping means you forfeit what amounts to a preflop value-bet. I'm a total pansy out-of-position, so I probably keep the pot small preflop and see where things go from there.

Re: Results
 

ML4L posted a hand awhile back against Matt where he had TPTK with AK. Matt check-raised him on the flop and Mike raised him back.

Matt folded, but what if he pushed? Mike said he'd have called. I don't think your thinking is too far off, but it just depends on if they're as aggressive as Matt is and how many times you've seen them pull this in the past.

Just don't let this thinking skew you into making bad calls against solid players.

Re: Results
 

Hi Matt,

Something that should've been painfully obvious before just occurred to me. Based on the reasoning in your post (no matter what the card, you had a license to take it away), your all-in on the turn is a huge mistake. If it's correct to bluff no matter what card comes off, I don't think it can be right to move all-in with a hand that's way ahead. So if any card other than a 6 or K came off, pushing is the move. But with trips, he's got 2 outs or less, as you recognized. I suspect this was one of those where as soon as he made that weak turn raise, you knew you were taking the pot away, and then failed to adjust when the miracle came off. I do that [censored] too, and it really pisses me off.

Re: Results
 

Hey cero,

[ QUOTE ]
Something that should've been painfully obvious before just occurred to me. Based on the reasoning in your post (no matter what the card, you had a license to take it away), your all-in on the turn is a huge mistake. If it's correct to bluff no matter what card comes off, I don't think it can be right to move all-in with a hand that's way ahead. So if any card other than a 6 or K came off, pushing is the move. But with trips, he's got 2 outs or less, as you recognized. I suspect this was one of those where as soon as he made that weak turn raise, you knew you were taking the pot away, and then failed to adjust when the miracle came off. I do that [censored] too, and it really pisses me off.

[/ QUOTE ]

While the all-in on the turn may or may not have been correct, it was not NECESSARILY incorrect just because Matt intended to move in on the turn even if he didn't improve.

From a simple perspective, Matt's decision on the turn had he missed would be along the lines of "Do I have a greater than 50% chance of taking the pot away from my opponent's superior hand if I bet (assuming an all-in to be pot-sized)?" Again, this is overly simple; you also must factor in things like the times that he will improve to beat JJ when called, the times his pair of 6's is good, etc. But, we'll just assume that to be the criteria for the sake of my point.

Now, his (simplified) criteria for betting the turn once he has improved is "Does the chance of Wayfare making a big call with an overpair plus the equity that I gain when I make him fold his two-outer exceed what I would gain by checking behind?" Then, if the decision is to bet, Matt must decide the amount which maximizes EV, which may or may not be an all-in. For the example, we'll assume that all-in maximizes Matt's EV. This isn't too much of a stretch, as any reasonable bet pot-commits both players, so all the money goes in anyway if some is bet. An exception might be an uber-small bet that Wayfare just can't fold to, but then you run the risk of Wayfare not having JJ and giving whatever he has the proper odds to call the turn bet. So, I think all-in is probably fine.

So, if there were a situation where Wayfare's calling frequency here were less than 50% yet greater than 0%, it might hypothetically be correct to move all-in on the turn regardless of whether Matt made his hand or not. Then, factoring in the meta-game implications (i.e. if Matt wants to pot the turn there with nothing, he needs to do it with his made hands), I think that Matt's move was reasonable.

As to your general point of getting so caught up "I have to steal this pot" mode that you bet the wrong amount when you do luck out and make a hand:

Yeah, I agree. I do the same thing sometimes (see Hand 1 of my overbet post).

ML4L

Re: Results
 

Hey cero,

[ QUOTE ]
When I feel I'm up against a thinking, aggressive player like you, and I've played my hand like Wayfare up to that point (usually because I sometimes slip back into a default mode that contains some of my old lines; a symptom of multi-tabling), I expect you to try that, and I'm very inclined to call you with a hand as big as JJ. Is this just suicide?

[/ QUOTE ]

The simple answer is that, no, this isn't "suicide," i.e. there are places for calls like this against aggressive players. As a general rule, though, there are a few reasons to avoid calls like this. One is that a "good" aggressive player is rarely bluffing you as often as it feels like he is (unless he thinks that you are incredibly weak). Two is that, when he is bluffing, he usually has many more outs against the hand that you call with than you have outs against his hand when it is better (i.e. JJ here is drawing to two outs, but if Matt had even a gutshot, he would be drawing to twice as many). Three is that, if a good, aggressive opponent knows that you are capable of big calls, he is going to have a field day with you. So, I'd only be inclined to make a call like this against an overly-aggressive player who underestimates you and will continue to do so after you make the call.

The better solution is to keep yourself out of spots like this. Although, from what it seems to me, when you play, you are more often the bully-er than you are the bully-ee, so you already know most of this... [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

ML4L

Re: Results
 

the 6-handed games play much more aggressively, so people adapt.

some players adapt quickly. against them you fire early, not late, and reduce your firing rate on later streets. plus i increase my annoyance raises. of course when you have a hand you should pound the pot.

matt

Re: Results
 

cero in a "real" game i would've bet less and often bluff with less.

mostly we were just having fun and slinging chips.

matt

Re: Results
 

[ QUOTE ]
cero in a "real" game i would've bet less and often bluff with less.

mostly we were just having fun and slinging chips.

matt

[/ QUOTE ]

So, in a 'real' game, what would your bet have been on the turn?

I made such a nice argument out of hypotheticals, and you had to go and ruin it with reality... [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Mike

Re: Results
 

i would've bet whatever you recommended in your post. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

depends on how much i thought he'd call with an overpair. probably would've erred on the cautious side and bet 20x. he might come over the top or call then bet the river. i bet small again on the river. hard to resist that. all them pot odds.

if you really think he'll lay down there you can check the turn.

matt

Re: Results
 

[ QUOTE ]
i would've bet whatever you recommended in your post. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

depends on how much i thought he'd call with an overpair. probably would've erred on the cautious side and bet 20x. he might come over the top or call then bet the river. i bet small again on the river. hard to resist that. all them pot odds.

if you really think he'll lay down there you can check the turn.

matt

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, so then I presume that you bet less when you miss too? If the turn is an offsuit deuce, you go with half-pot again? How often do you fire another barrel when you have the other guy in the spot that you had Wayfare?

The reason that I'm wondering is because I feel like unless you are checking behind on the turn a lot or making him pay more when you have/make a hand, then your opponent might have a pretty easy check-raise/call-down from a prior probability stand-point. Assuming that he knows math and/or has the balls, which fortunately for you, eliminates about 95% of the online population... [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Mike

Re: Results
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Doesn't matter what card comes off on the turn -- if it ain't a jack, I'm probably not playing. The fact he had the best hand is incidental.

[/ QUOTE ]

yep. it did not matter what card came off. i know what you have; you don't know what i have; and you've shown a lack of commitment.

[/ QUOTE ]



So after the checkraise, if he led into you on the turn and you hadnt improved against his overpair then you would be done with the hand?

Re: Results
 

folded if he made any significantly sized bet.

Re: Me vs. Matt Flynn
 

Shouldn't this go in the small stakes forum? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Results
 

mike,

yes and yes. one of the strengths of my game - at least in my mind - is that my betting and checking varies more than most players. i give up ev in isolation sometimes, but the benefit is it is often hard to put me on a hand online.

matt

Re: Results
 

[ QUOTE ]
the 6-handed games play much more aggressively, so people adapt.

some players adapt quickly. against them you fire early, not late, and reduce your firing rate on later streets. plus i increase my annoyance raises. of course when you have a hand you should pound the pot.

matt

[/ QUOTE ]

Any chance you could clarify what you mean by this Matt? Thanks.

Re: Results
 

He minraised with 22 and then flopped a set on me. =P

Re: Results
 

[ QUOTE ]


OK, so then I presume that you bet less when you miss too? If the turn is an offsuit deuce, you go with half-pot again?


[/ QUOTE ]

this is the key point IMO.....

FWIW, I don't like the half-pot bet at all.....if Matt always overbets with the bluff and always underbets the goods, it's too easy to play against him......if he always makes the same sized bet, it's tougher.....and if that's the case, why not go with the bet that yields the highest folding equity (is it true that Dutch Boyd coined that phrase? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]), especially since we're talking about a five-outer here (Matt's only gonna hit that like 10% of the time)......I think a big bet on the turn makes for the highest EV (with these stack sizes)......but then again, like Mike said, a lot of people are dumb and don't think about this stuff or figure out how to read hands by betting patterns.....

Re: Results
 

just a bunch of smaller raises to make the opponent more aware of my raising and hopefully goad him into waiting for the nuts or spastically overplaying a hand.