80/160 GAME AT BELLAGIO
 

In the first week of April, I made first trip out to Vegas to play some poker at the Bellagio. I had a fun weekend, that ended with about 15 hours of poker play.
On the 3rd and final night of my trip I was able to get back into the 80 game after playing in it for about 10 hours the previous 2 days.
Half and hour into the game, which was filled with a fair mix of local pro's, and several tourists, I was seated in the 5 seat and welcomed the new arrival.
I was up about 1200 and waiting for my next big hand when it came up.
A new player, sat in seat 1 with 5k...he was a tourny pro who was waiting to get into the 2k-4k mixed game.
I sat figuring to get caught up in a hand with him and make some money that he would be willing to part with out of enjoyment for the game...I don't think this limit makes him feel anything for it but time passage.

Here it is
Pro raises BB+2 folds to me and I 3 Bet with QsQc, everyone folds back to pro, who calls.
Flop: Qh Jh 5s
Pro Bets, I raise, he calls.
Turn: 3d
Pro checks I bet, pro check raises, I 3bet, pro 4bets, I 5 bet, pro 6, I 7, pro 8, I 9, pro calls.

At this point, I know exactly what hand he has, and I am in a awesome position...this is the pot of the night, and I have the nuts.
River: 6h
Pro checks, I bet, Pro check raises!!!!!

I sit for about a minute thinking about 3 betting knowing what his hand is and figuring he is possibly a lot weaker than that. I end up just calling.

What would you guys have done???

answers later [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Re: 80/160 GAME AT BELLAGIO
 

That was some real turn action there. He surely was putting
his money in on a strong flopped four flush.
Only two hands beat you, a no-way 7 4, and a any two hearts.
I think it's strange though.....with a flopped 4 flush why not re-raise it on the flop instead of just calling your raise. Then he goes chip nuts on a complete turn blank.
But......with the river a heart.....he check raises you,
which takes me back to his flopped 4 flush.

Hope you won the huge pot!

Re: 80/160 GAME AT BELLAGIO
 

[ QUOTE ]
What would you guys have done???

[/ QUOTE ]

5-bet and call a 6-bet. Besides JJ, the only other hands I could see him having here are A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Edit: you know what? As soon as I hit the submit button, I realized I was wrong. The opponent knows that you have QQ, and he still checkraised the river. I would just call.

Re: 80/160 GAME AT BELLAGIO
 

T9s should have been more agro on the flop instead of the turn.

JJ should have put you on queens after you went crazy on the turn.

I'd just call on the end. Regardless of what he had he made a big mistake on the turn dont make up for it by overplaying on the end.

About schmidts31
 

I make it a rule that whenever I 9-bet the turn and I don't have the nuts on the river, and I'm check-raised by the 8-bettor, I just call. I figure he must know that I had the nuts on the turn. Or he just doesn't care. And since I don't know which, I just call.

Re: 80/160 GAME AT BELLAGIO
 

Yep, and let's put 5000 out there on a single blackjack hand. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

I think he has 10[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

I would be on tilt bigtime after this hand.

Re: 80/160 GAME AT BELLAGIO
 

Either T9h or KT. T9 is morelikely to raise with in MP. AK is not likely because it doesn't have the extra straight outs.

Re: 80/160 GAME AT BELLAGIO
 

I put in a 3rd bet and call a 4 bet.

Re: 80/160 GAME AT BELLAGIO
 

K 10 or 9 10 of hearts is possible but IMO more likely JJ.

But if he has the draw he is either a moron or doing REALLY well to play with $160 bets like that.

That being said....the way he played his hand on the turn indicates he is not playing logically. That 5th bet by you indicates the nuts and he should just be calling. So I would throw in a reraise on the river and just call when he comes back over the top.

I just don't see how you can give an idiot this much respect on the end by just calling.

Re: About schmidts31
 

Andy if you don't know what he has and know he's playing strangely wouldn't you think it's +EV to throw in at least 1 reraise here?

After all...the guy is playing out of his mind and you have a monster hand. I mean he SHOULD have known you had QQ by the 7th bet on the turn at least and yet put in the 8th.

Re: About schmidts31
 

Maybe the money doesn't mean anything to him. But if he knows you have Q-Q, then he must be drawing pretty live, i.e., to more than two outs. I'm thinking I've already put in eleven big bets here and he's still raising and I don't have the nuts. I mean, his play is obviously a bit strange no matter what his hand, would you be surprised if he showed down a flush?

Re: 80/160 GAME AT BELLAGIO
 

Wow. I bet this hand was good for the game. I call the river checkraise. He knows what you have.

PokerPrince

Re: About schmidts31
 

[ QUOTE ]
would you be surprised if he showed down a flush?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd be suprised if he didnt.

-Brad

Re: 80/160 GAME AT BELLAGIO
 

Pro my ass...

What pro pumps the turn on an OESF draw instead of the flop where his hand is more a favorite than the turn?

I can understand that he could have an OESF draw if he jacks and rejacks the flop, and then jacks and rejacks the turn. Then I would just call his c/r on the river.

I smell a set over set here, with small chance he had AQ ..and believe me I've seen them pull some crazy shiet with TPTK in that 80/160 and 30/60 game at the Bellagio when I played there.

Raise 1 more time, call another raise if he does pump it again.

Pro player..my ass.

Lawrence

Re: 80/160 GAME AT BELLAGIO
 

I'm beginning to understand why Barry Greenstein said that the "big game" players start salivating when some of the tournament pros show up at the table.

Re: 80/160 GAME AT BELLAGIO
 

[ QUOTE ]
What pro pumps the turn on an OESF draw instead of the flop where his hand is more a favorite than the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

a pro that is bored and doesn't give a [censored]?


It almost seems like his play is pissing you off?

/psychiatrist mode on

why?

/psychiatrist mode off

/pokergod mode on

As for the hand i agree with pokerprince. He knows what you have. call the raise i say..

/pokergod mode off (well its never completely off of course that would be ungodlike)

Re: 80/160 GAME AT BELLAGIO
 

2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] make as much sense as most of the other theories in this thread. He may be an action player but I doubt he's retarded. I think people who are in a big hurry to put in another raise on the river are getting a bit silly.

SpaceAce

Re: 80/160 GAME AT BELLAGIO
 

I think if we knew who the pro was this play might make a little more sense to us...Who was the pro

Re: 80/160 GAME AT BELLAGIO
 

Who he is, is not as important as what he is worth. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
Money is of no concern for this game.

Re: 80/160 GAME AT BELLAGIO
 

The pro knows your hand. He is raising you. It is reasonable to believe he could hold a hand that beats you. You are offering 2:1 with your raise. Do not raise.

The pro doesn't care about money. He might be making an outlandish bluff. Do not fold.

That only leaves one option.

Good luck.
Eric

Re: 80/160 GAME AT BELLAGIO
 

Any chance he showed 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], having picked up the extra outs on the turn? If the money is no option suited flyers are a very likely raise preflop too. Still I hope you won this monster pot.

Re: 80/160 GAME AT BELLAGIO
 

[ QUOTE ]
The pro knows your hand. He is raising you. It is reasonable to believe he could hold a hand that beats you. You are offering 2:1 with your raise. Do not raise.

The pro doesn't care about money. He might be making an outlandish bluff. Do not fold.

That only leaves one option.

Good luck.
Eric

[/ QUOTE ]

Couldn't have said it better.

Re: 80/160 GAME AT BELLAGIO
 

Okay boys,
here it is.

K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]10 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

I just called the river, said you're a pro?? nice hand picked up my chips, and went over to the 30/60 game and made my 1200 back...oh well.

It would have been a sweet pot.
Thanks for the input guys. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Re: 80/160 GAME AT BELLAGIO
 

[ QUOTE ]
Okay boys,
here it is.

K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]10 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

I just called the river, said you're a pro?? nice hand picked up my chips, and went over to the 30/60 game and made my 1200 back...oh well.

It would have been a sweet pot.
Thanks for the input guys. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

It is imperative that you tell us who this was.

-2kF

EDIT: My vote goes to Hoyt Corkins.

Re: 80/160 GAME AT BELLAGIO
 

my money would be on hennigan.

Re: 80/160 GAME AT BELLAGIO
 

Given his blog about party day and given his blog about playing 10-20 NL in the dark, i wouldn't be surprised if this was negraaaaaahnu having some fun with some of the low limit donkeys.

Re: 80/160 GAME AT BELLAGIO
 

I went scrolling to the end, hoping you hadn't posted the results yet.

I think the right play against a very good player is to fold to the checkraise on the river. A very good player is way more likely to go nine-bets on the turn with a huge draw than with second set. And if you're the type (as I am) who would never go nine-bets there without pocket queens, and if the very good player suspects that you are that type of player, then when I put it all together, it's a no-brainer fold on the river. You can't have the best hand anymore.

Tommy

Re: 80/160 GAME AT BELLAGIO
 

excellent work tommy

Re: 80/160 GAME AT BELLAGIO
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think if we knew who the pro was this play might make a little more sense to us...Who was the pro

[/ QUOTE ]
If you want to know who it is because you are curious that is one thing... but do you have some catalog of how all of the pros play limit hold'em while they are waiting for bigger games? If not then I am not really sure how knowing who it is affects reading this hand.

He probably had some sort of draw that he decided to jam on the turn and it got there. He is smart enough to know that we had the nuts on the turn and check-raised us on the river anyway.

Re: 80/160 GAME AT BELLAGIO
 

there is no way i fold river in limit hold em...no way...
that is a horrible mistake....if i am wrong, I blow a huge pot...i could have just checked the river...no problem...i believed he had JJ...no way do i fold to a check raise...for 1 more bet....if it was big bet poker, and we had huge stacks, if they did not get all in on the turn, i check river if i don't want to call a raise....
never fold...purely stupid play to fold
no offense intended

Re: 80/160 GAME AT BELLAGIO
 

I wish I could ever reach the Buddha-like state you describe. But as it is, I'm still too much attached to that damned thing in the middle of the table.

Forever learning,

Ikke.

Re: 80/160 GAME AT BELLAGIO
 

[ QUOTE ]
I went scrolling to the end, hoping you hadn't posted the results yet.

I think the right play against a very good player is to fold to the checkraise on the river. A very good player is way more likely to go nine-bets on the turn with a huge draw than with second set. And if you're the type (as I am) who would never go nine-bets there without pocket queens, and if the very good player suspects that you are that type of player, then when I put it all together, it's a no-brainer fold on the river. You can't have the best hand anymore.

Tommy

[/ QUOTE ]

But the very good player (with something like an overplayed lower set) would also know that the only chance they have to win this pot is to get you to fold. Can they get you to do it more than once in twelve times through a checkraise?

Or, from your perspective, given that they have checkraised the river, is there at least a one in twenty six chance that said pro is trying the above move?

Re: 80/160 GAME AT BELLAGIO
 

Don't learn from that advice. It's poor. If there is even the slightest sliver of a chance he could have JJ or something else, a call is RESOUNDINGLY correct. The only way I could be 100% positive here is if he turned his flush faceup while I'm pondering a call. Folding on the river here would be a big mistake.

Jeff

Re: 80/160 GAME AT BELLAGIO
 

If you're going to fold to a raise why bet the river?

PokerPrince

Re: 80/160 GAME AT BELLAGIO
 

[ QUOTE ]
I went scrolling to the end, hoping you hadn't posted the results yet.

I think the right play against a very good player is to fold to the checkraise on the river. A very good player is way more likely to go nine-bets on the turn with a huge draw than with second set. And if you're the type (as I am) who would never go nine-bets there without pocket queens, and if the very good player suspects that you are that type of player, then when I put it all together, it's a no-brainer fold on the river. You can't have the best hand anymore.

Tommy

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

You are going to fold top set in a 10000BB pot for 1 more bet?

Never.

Re: 80/160 GAME AT BELLAGIO
 

I think that most of you get this...there are 26 big bets in on the river when he check raises me...for 1 more bet...I call without question...otherwise yes, i would not bet the river if i were to fold to a check raise.

On another note, he check raised a buddy of mine the next night on the river with 5 high when my friend had nut-no-pair...many of these pots are won with Ace high...
i will not fold this hand.

Re: 80/160 GAME AT BELLAGIO
 

[ QUOTE ]
Don't learn from that advice. It's poor. If there is even the slightest sliver of a chance he could have JJ or something else, a call is RESOUNDINGLY correct. The only way I could be 100% positive here is if he turned his flush faceup while I'm pondering a call. Folding on the river here would be a big mistake.

Jeff

[/ QUOTE ]
Jeff, this is absolutely correct...
thanks..

Re: 80/160 GAME AT BELLAGIO
 

[ QUOTE ]
If there is even the slightest sliver of a chance

[/ QUOTE ]

If there is only the slightest sliver of a chance that he is ahead, then this is an easy fold.

Re: 80/160 GAME AT BELLAGIO
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you're going to fold to a raise why bet the river?


[/ QUOTE ]

To get paid off by a worse hand.

Re: 80/160 GAME AT BELLAGIO
 

[ QUOTE ]
I went scrolling to the end, hoping you hadn't posted the results yet.

I think the right play against a very good player is to fold to the checkraise on the river. A very good player is way more likely to go nine-bets on the turn with a huge draw than with second set. And if you're the type (as I am) who would never go nine-bets there without pocket queens, and if the very good player suspects that you are that type of player, then when I put it all together, it's a no-brainer fold on the river. You can't have the best hand anymore.

Tommy

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Folding is absurd.