Two Plus Two Older Archives - QQ

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- - QQ - Party 15/30 (http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=229968)

QQ - Party 15/30

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
2 folds, UTG+2 calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, 1 fold, CO 3-bets, 3 folds, UTG+2 calls, Hero caps, CO calls, UTG+2 calls.

Flop: (13.66 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG+2 checks, Hero bets, CO calls, UTG+2 calls.

Turn: (8.33 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG+2 checks, Hero bets, CO calls, UTG+2 raises...

Your action.

Will

Re: QQ - Party 15/30

No reads at all?

Since you have position on UTG+2, I like three-betting here. That will probably get CO to fold his AK, and depending on the river card you can decide if you want to value bet or take a free showdown.

Re: QQ - Party 15/30

Do the people who say 3-bet really think our hand is good here?

Re: QQ - Party 15/30

UTG+2 likes his hand enough to limp and call a 3-bet preflop and enough to check-raise both preflop aggressors on the turn. I'm calling down.

Re: QQ - Party 15/30

[ QUOTE ]
UTG+2 likes his hand enough to limp and call a 3-bet preflop and enough to check-raise both preflop aggressors on the turn. I'm calling down.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. I think 3-betting is spewing.

Protection agaist CO is a non issue, IMO.

Re: QQ - Party 15/30

I think UTG+2 is drawing to the nut flush, possibly ATspades? I don't see many other options. I have a funny feeling that we are not ahead here though, and I would call down. Any Reads on his play?

Liam

Re: QQ - Party 15/30

[ QUOTE ]
Protection agaist CO is a non issue, IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

What else do you put him on besides AK? I think you get more action from TT-AA. He might have AQs, but even then he's almost getting odds to draw to his three-outer for just one more bet.

If you put EP on a set or the straight, why not just fold? You're drawing nearly dead against those hands.

Three-betting the turn protects our hand from CO if we are ahead, gives us a chance for a free showdown if we don't improve, and could possibly get EP to fold a five-outer against us incorrectly.

If he caps we're almost certainly drawing to two or zero outs and can safely fold.

Re: QQ - Party 15/30

[ QUOTE ]
What else do you put him on besides AK?

[/ QUOTE ]

Since I feel I am likely behind, and need to improve, I actually want AK to call the bet. (none of the cards that complete my hand against UTG+2 also complete AK).

[ QUOTE ]

I think you get more action from TT-AA. He might have AQs, but even then he's almost getting odds to draw to his three-outer for just one more bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. But, again, I want him drawing if I am drawing as well.

[ QUOTE ]

If you put EP on a set or the straight, why not just fold? You're drawing nearly dead against those hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I am behind. I also think that I am ahead (or improve) often enough to call down.

[ QUOTE ]
If he caps we're almost certainly drawing to two or zero outs and can safely fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. But, I'd rather not give up my suckout equity, and get to showdown for the same number of bets.

Re: QQ - Party 15/30

No reads?

I would call down here. UTG+2 is showing too much strength to 3-bet. 3-betting protects your hand against CO, but you're often drawing to 2 outs against UTG+2's TT/99 and you end up losing 4 BBs instead of 2. CO might fold anyway and there is no gaurantee that he has a hand with 6 outs instead of 3 or 2.

Re: QQ - Party 15/30

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
2 folds, UTG+2 calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, 1 fold, CO 3-bets, 3 folds, UTG+2 calls, Hero caps, CO calls, UTG+2 calls.

Flop: (13.66 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG+2 checks, Hero bets, CO calls, UTG+2 calls.

Turn: (8.33 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG+2 checks, Hero bets, CO calls, UTG+2 raises...

Your action.

Will

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm just curious--do you have the roll to be playing 15/30 regularly? The stats I have on you (which are all for times when you played a very small number of hands before getting up) are comically tight/weak. I might just have a skewed sample, but it's something you might want to look at...

scrub

Re: QQ - Party 15/30 : RESULTS

Please do not take the following as facetious - it is sincere.

I do appreciate your concern.

I have the roll for 15/30 (i.e. +500 BB's) I just have been playing pretty sparsely recently - I've been doing other things, and when I do sit down to play it's not for a long stretch.

I think your statistics are off...as it stands I have a 19/12 with a 1.9 aggressiveness rating through ~80K hands. If I'm not optimal preflop I definitely think I'm on the loose side, to be frank.

In regard to the hand...I actually folded. (wow do I look weak-tight.) My reasoning at the time was thus: UTG+2's turn check-raise is EXTREMELY UNLIKELY to be a semi-bluff...and so what hands is he going to check-raise for value here? I really, really thought I was up against a set or a straight...or, possibly, a bizarrely played AA or KK.

So I folded and CO called. River blanked, UTG+2 bet and CO called, UTG+2 turned over 96 for two-pair and CO turned over JJ. So, based on the cards, a definite bad fold.

But I'm curious guys...you are all so certain about your answers, and yet I haven't seen you guys put down a range of hands for UTG+2. When I played the hand I couldn't put him on a hand other than a set, 87, AA or KK...well, now that I think of it, I would add T9. But do you guys really think he could be semi-bluffing here? In general? Or am I totally going psycho in narrowing down his range?

Will

Re: QQ - Party 15/30 : RESULTS

[ QUOTE ]
But do you guys really think he could be semi-bluffing here? In general?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would definitely not read a turn check-raise; into two players; out of position; in a protected pot; as a semi-bluff. He would have to be exceptionally retarded (not just Partytarded) to pull a move like this.

I also think it was exceptional that you were drawing as live as you were. More often than not you are drawing slim or dead so your fold seems pretty reasonable to me.

Re: QQ - Party 15/30

3-betting sucks, hard.

Re: QQ - Party 15/30

[ QUOTE ]
3-betting sucks, hard.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. CO is the least of our worries. Look closely at how UTG+2 has played his hand. Be afraid.

Re: QQ - Party 15/30

[ QUOTE ]
No reads at all?

Since you have position on UTG+2, I like three-betting here. That will probably get CO to fold his AK, and depending on the river card you can decide if you want to value bet or take a free showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]

And when capped?

Re: QQ - Party 15/30 : RESULTS

[ QUOTE ]
But I'm curious guys...you are all so certain about your answers, and yet I haven't seen you guys put down a range of hands for UTG+2. When I played the hand I couldn't put him on a hand other than a set, 87, AA or KK...well, now that I think of it, I would add T9. But do you guys really think he could be semi-bluffing here? In general? Or am I totally going psycho in narrowing down his range?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would have called down and, much more often than not, wished I folded. I have to admit I think the amount of times when I look like I'm clearly ahead but know I'm somehow beat, I'm almost always beat.

I recently limped along with QJ from LP. On a Q84 x x board, someone who plays a lot and I play a lot against, was firing at the pot. I knew I had the best Q with a few flop callers, but could tell she was looking to 3 bet. She kept betting and I called it down. She had 84 from the BB. That catastrophic fold thing makes me wonder about how much you should just trust your instincts.

Re: QQ - Party 15/30 : RESULTS

[ QUOTE ]
So I folded and CO called. River blanked, UTG+2 bet and CO called, UTG+2 turned over 96 for two-pair and CO turned over JJ. So, based on the cards, a definite bad fold.

But I'm curious guys...you are all so certain about your answers, and yet I haven't seen you guys put down a range of hands for UTG+2. When I played the hand I couldn't put him on a hand other than a set, 87, AA or KK...well, now that I think of it, I would add T9. But do you guys really think he could be semi-bluffing here? In general? Or am I totally going psycho in narrowing down his range?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think folding the turn is WAY better than 3-betting.

I said call down because I've heard (although I have no experience at) that the 15/30 game is hyper aggressive. Because of this, I would believe that this hand wins often enough at showdown to make calling down correct.

You have experience at the game, and you feel that this isn't the case. I feel folding has a lot of merit, and might be best. It all depends on your read.

3-betting, however, makes me want to vomit in my own mouth.

Re: QQ - Party 15/30

Will,

I agree with your assessment of the situation, this would have to be the ballsiest semibluff EVER against a bettor and a caller. if you were heads up, then you could start thinking about calling down versus three betting for the freebie. but, IMO you have to give this dude some credit for raising the both of you when you are trapped. he wants callers.

of course this is without all that he knows I know that he knows crap, but I would never count on both players being capable of folding here.

Re: QQ - Party 15/30 : RESULTS

The reason I ask is because I'm pretty sure UTG+2 in this hand was a complete maniac, or in the least far too erratic to consider a fold here.

I wouldn't have 3-bet, but if this happened at the table I think it did, folding is horrendous.

scrub

Re: QQ - Party 15/30

How can I give ranges without reads?

Re: QQ - Party 15/30

Didn't you see he had JJ? [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: QQ - Party 15/30

I've not seen anyone talk about counterfeiting a hand here.

If UTG+2 has something like T4, we still have 8 outs.

I can't find a fold here, but I don't like a 3 bet.

Re: QQ - Party 15/30

[ QUOTE ]
I've not seen anyone talk about counterfeiting a hand here.

If UTG+2 has something like T4, we still have 8 outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

It was mentioned somewhere.

The only 2 pairs hand a reasonable player has here is T9s.

And there are only 2 combos of that hand. (again, a read helps this as well)

Re: QQ - Party 15/30

I'm not posting this to kill Will personally--I think he's a valuable contributor to the forum, but I think this post demonstrates a huge problem with many posts on twoplustwo, and I'd imagine a huge problem with many posters' games--you guys don't pay enough attention to your opponents.

This hand looks like a decent time to fold in a vacuum:

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop:
2 folds, UTG+2 calls, 1 fold, MP2 raises, 1 fold, CO 3-bets, 3 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP2 caps, CO calls, UTG+2 calls.

Flop: (13.66 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG+2 checks, MP2 bets, CO calls, UTG+2 calls.

Turn: (8.33 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG+2 checks, MP2 bets, CO calls, UTG+2 raises, MP2 folds, CO calls.

River: (13.33 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+2 bets, CO calls.

Final Pot: 15.33 BB
Main Pot: 15.33 BB, between UTG+2 and CO. > Pot won by UTG+2 (15.33 BB).

Results :
UTG+2 has 6d 9h (two pair, nines and sixes).
CO has Js Jh (one pair, jacks).
Outcome: UTG+2 wins 15.33 BB.

But, imagine that Will had taken anecdotal notes about things his opponent had done in the past. Then he might have a note that said this:

coldcalling fucktard--9ts to the cap
checkraised flopped nut flush into pf3-bettor on flop and turn
has raised absolute trash UTG and then checkraised the flop rando ep turn bet out bluff
{{VPIP: 32 - PFR: 11 - HANDS: 576
AF-F: 1.0 - AF-T: 1.4 - AF-R: 1.2 - CR: 2
ASB: 26 - FBB: 38 - FRB: 40 - Win@SD: 40}}>

If Will had been watching the table, he might have seen this hand:

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (7 handed) converter

Preflop:
UTG (Will's opponent)raises, MPA 3-bets, 4 folds, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (9.66 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, MPA bets, BB calls, UTG raises, MPA calls, BB calls $19.50 (All-In), UTG calls, MPA calls.

Turn: (8.28 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players, 1 all-in)
UTG bets, MPA raises, UTG calls.

River: (12.28 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players, 1 all-in)
UTG checks, MPA bets, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 14.28 BB
Main Pot: 8.28 BB, between UTG, MPA and BB.
Pot won by MPA (8.28 BB).
Pot 2: 6 BB, between UTG and MPA. > Pot won by MPA (6 BB).
Results :
BB has Th 7h (one pair, nines).
UTG has 8c 5c (two pair, nines and eights).
MPA has Qd Ad (two pair, queens and nines).
Outcome: MPA wins 14.28 BB.

Or this one:

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop:
UTG calls (Will's opponent), 6 folds, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (3 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, BB calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (3 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, BB folds, UTG raises, SB calls.

River: (7 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, UTG checks.

Final Pot: 7 BB
Main Pot: 7 BB, between UTG and SB. > Pot won by SB (7 BB).

Results:
SB has Jc 4s (one pair, jacks).
UTG has 5d 4d (one pair, fives).
Outcome: SB wins 7 BB.

Maybe having a sense that the guy who checkraised him was bizzare would have made Will's decision easier. It certainly would have made it easier for other posters to comment on the hand.

scrub