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-   -   Slowplaying AA, higher variance but anything more? (http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=229296)

Rotating Rabbit 04-09-2005 06:40 PM

Slowplaying AA, higher variance but anything more?
 
Normally I raise AA every time from any position, but recently I've been trying to throw off any reads and have limped it in early position.

Here's one I didnt enjoy:

I have $880 behind, everyone is about that, main villian has me covered. (Hand from memory)

Hero is UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Hero calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO calls, Button calls, SB calls, BB checks.

Pot is $70, 7(!) players to the flop (the ONE time I limp!)

Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Hero checks, all check.

Turn: 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

SB bets $20, BB folds, Hero raises to $90, 2 folds, CO raises to $225, Button folds, SB folds, Hero pushes for ¬$600 more, CO calls.

River: K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]


When I checked the flop I was praying nobody had the 78, and I felt there was a good chance that:

a) Someone bets with the case ace
b) Someone bets with a set
c) If I give a free card someone will improve on the turn, but still be behind.

And of course this hand I got wasted by the 10[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

I knew the risks and played for a big pot by slowplaying. Worst case scenario on the flop was that someone had 8 outs against me.

But on the general question of AA, I'm having a bit of an identity crisis on whether to take these kind of risks. Slowplaying aces seems to increase the variance on the results it brings, but other than occasionally doing it to show the table you sometimes do it, is it worth it as a regular play?

Has anyone actually looked at statistics of them playing AA two different ways preflop?

gomberg 04-09-2005 06:47 PM

Re: Slowplaying AA, higher variance but anything more?
 
I get much better results fast-playing them preflop. I actually like your limp here though as you're out of position and can limp-reraise if you want.

Oh well, plan failed until you hit an amazing flop! No flush draw and top set! Never slow-play a set of aces as the next card can always make a straight! ESPECIALLY w/ many limpers in there. Bet out, at least the pot, and hope someone gives you action - because there are many cards that can beat you on the turn - and no one is going to give you excessive action on a middle two pair with an ace out there. Most likely you win a small one here.

Vince Lepore 04-09-2005 07:36 PM

Re: Slowplaying AA, higher variance but anything more?
 
What is more important here is not whether limping with A,A is correct, it's how do you play them when you have less than the nuts. When the CO reraises sirens should go off in your head! You can't get away from this hand but you can "try" to minimize your loss. When the CO reraised he told you that he had a big hand. That should indicate a set of a straight. He has a bettor and a raiser in front of him. Unless he is a real dope he would not reraise without one of these two hands, set or straight. If he has a set he might be a little reluctant to reraise such a small amoutn with a straigth and flush draw out there and price the draw in. I think he makes a bigger raise with a set. His raise begs for a call. He must have a straight. You should just call the turn and see what happens.

Vince

Voltron87 04-09-2005 09:05 PM

Re: Slowplaying AA, higher variance but anything more?
 
If you are going to check AA all the way to the turn you have to learn how to fold it.

soah 04-09-2005 09:10 PM

Re: Slowplaying AA, higher variance but anything more?
 
ffs he has the third nuts with a draw to beat the first and second nuts. Advising a fold here seems a wee bit results oriented. There's no way to know that the other guy didn't just pick up two pair or a set.

Checking the flop looks like a mistake though. I don't see how a free card is more likely to improve someone to a very strong second-best hand than it is to improve someone to a straight.

Voltron87 04-09-2005 09:17 PM

Re: Slowplaying AA, higher variance but anything more?
 
I just meant in general, I wasn't talking about the hand in particular. I fold here only in my dreams.

Ghazban 04-09-2005 09:19 PM

Re: Slowplaying AA, higher variance but anything more?
 
I dislike the flop check. A benefit of not raising preflop is that, when you get a flop like this, nobody will put you on top set. Bet out and hope you get raised so you can get all-in on the turn. The straights that kill you with this turn card should not call a flop bet. Had you raised preflop, you might have reason to check this flop in the hope somebody puts you on KK/QQ/etc. and represents the ace by betting.

On the turn, what do you put CO on that's good enough to come over the top of both a bet and raise in front of him? I won't say you need to fold (you've got the 3rd nuts and a redraw to beat the first and second nuts) but you can't rule out the two hands that beat you due to the lack of betting/raising prior to this point in the hand.

Rotating Rabbit 04-10-2005 05:42 AM

Re: Slowplaying AA, higher variance but anything more?
 
Yeah, you're right the flop check was definitely an error.

On the turn I think im doomed no matter what I do. If he has 2 pair or set I want us all in now in case some 'scare card' hits on the river that gives him second thoughts. I think he has set/2pair at least as often here as the gutshot.

If I just call the 225 the pot will be about 550 and I'll have less than that behind and will end up all in on the river; if board pairs I'll obviously bet it, if it doesnt (and I dont bet, which is another tough call) he certainly will and I'll have to call.

So as I see it the only way I can lose money is by calling on the turn then him making an amazing laydown with his set/2pair/straight if counterfeited/flush card/board pairing as appropriate. So, im screwed...I've dug my own grave and really have to jump in [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Lucky 04-10-2005 02:08 PM

Re: Slowplaying AA, higher variance but anything more?
 
The preflop limp is ok. If you don't want to put in a full raise with it, you might also consider a mini raise in EP with AA, especially if you sometimes do this with small pp and suited connectors and somone might try to steal.

The flop check is very bad.

1. As happened someone could catch a straight.
2. Almost as damaging, someone else (idiotically as well) could fancy themselves overtricky and slowplay a set...then very possibly you dont get paid if the board becomes scary.

BET YOUR HANDS.

okayplayer 04-10-2005 09:26 PM

Re: Slowplaying AA, higher variance but anything more?
 
I usually don't limp with AA, except when I have a bad LAG behind me, because a limp-re-raise screams AA/KK, and you usually save someone w QQ/JJ (and to an extent KK) money as they then play for set value.

In terms of your hand, you need to get money in on the flop. When a limp-re-raise fails with AA, play your hand fast and hope someone caught a 2nd best hand to pay you off, but you have to be able to lay it down (though I'm not saying you should fold in this hand, I'd probably call the turn and hope for a cheap showdown, but that is unlikely...).

Popinjay 04-10-2005 09:35 PM

Re: Slowplaying AA, higher variance but anything more?
 
dont go broke in unraised pots

Voltron87 04-10-2005 09:52 PM

Re: Slowplaying AA, higher variance but anything more?
 
If you always say this to yourself when you flop sets (top set no less) in NL you will not win very much money.

technologic 04-10-2005 10:00 PM

Re: Slowplaying AA, higher variance but anything more?
 
i'll rephrase for him

don't go broke in unraised pots without the nuts.

BobboFitos 04-10-2005 10:06 PM

Re: Slowplaying AA, higher variance but anything more?
 
[ QUOTE ]
i'll rephrase for him

don't go broke in unraised pots without the nuts.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah

I posted that on SSNL, but it should apply here, too. Honestly.. what horrible advice.

cero_z 04-11-2005 04:13 AM

Re: Slowplaying AA, higher variance but anything more?
 
Hi RR,

I haven't read all of the responses yet, so I apologize if this is redundant.

Limping in EP with AA is fine, and you got the bad scenario this time, in which 6 others saw a cheap flop.

Then, you get a terrific flop. Checking here is where you made your mistake, IMO. Here's the thing. I assume from your description of yourself that you're a tight player. Once a tight player puts in a large bet on this flop, people have got to take notice, especially if he limped in EP. Because of the lack of available draws, they will put you on 99, 66, AA, A9s, or A6s (in roughly that order) as soon as you, a tight player who limped early, put in over a $100 bet. That's OK, but because of this, you cost yourself money by checkraising. That's because your first major action into the pot will be of the size that sets off alarms. If, for example, someone bets 50 and you make it 150, they know you have a big hand, and they put in 50 to find out. But if you lead out for $50, someone with a decent Ace or bottom 2 pair, or (the very unlikely) Aces up may raise you that same $150 or so, at which point you could reraise, tipping the strength of your hand, but doing so after they put $150 into the pot.

As far as overall strategy goes, I agree with gomberg that you make more by fast-playing them pre-flop in general. That said, you must mix up your play sometimes. So, if you want to slowplay the Aces, I advise you to do it when you have position on an aggressive raiser who has raised enough pre-flop that you usually will be the only caller if you call. So, if a guy makes it 25 to go in the 5-10 game, I would tend to NOT SLOWPLAY them. But if he makes it 35 or more, then flat-calling him is a valid option.

The big key to slowplaying AA, IMO, is balancing 2 factors. Most importantly, you have to think about when you need to abort your slowplay, because the board came down ugly. So if a guy raises a little bigger than his normal pf raise (as many do with big pairs), and then the board comes down K Q 8, you might be better off cautiously calling down, rather than exploding on him as you had planned initially. The 2nd factor, though, is to have some heart, and realize that though your Aces may start to feel tenuous on some boards when your opponent seems very confident, you haven't revealed the strength of your hand yet, so your opponent can be confidently betting a 2nd best hand quite easily (and this, of course, is the goal when slowplaying AA).

That's all I got--tough hand this time.

Sponger15SB 04-11-2005 04:51 AM

Re: Slowplaying AA, higher variance but anything more?
 
[ QUOTE ]
slowplaying AA, higher variance but anything more?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nothing more, just less money in your pocket.


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