Another fun give me a line hand.
 

Veterans need not respond unless they feel like it. This is about what some of you new players are doing in this situtaion.

UTG+1 is super-donk. 65/5 and very poor postflop
BB is 22.5/5 preflop, and has gone to showdown only 10% of the time, almost always showing down winners.

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">7 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls

Flop: (9.50 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero...

Most importantly, really try to reason out why what you're doing is right, and why the other options are inferior.

Re: Another fun give me a line hand.
 

I'd fold. With only 5% PFR, this really limits what he is 3-betting with preflop. AK or JJ+, I'd say.

Re: Another fun give me a line hand.
 

I think I smooth call this to see if we can bring UTG+1 along for the ride. A raise by UTG+1 probably means you're beat by a K and you can fold. You can safely fold the turn if you don't pick up a [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] or a T.

How'd I do?

Re: Another fun give me a line hand.
 

Looks like an easy fold based on your read. He 3-bets us PF and leads out on the flop. What are we looking at? Smallish size pot, with an overcard on the board, and the rock is giving us action? easy fold.

Re: Another fun give me a line hand.
 

If you think facing UTG+1 with two bets will fold him, then raise. A raise might buy you a free river card. If BB reraises you can probably put him on AA KK, or AK.

The pot is paying 9.5 - 1. You probably don't want to fold.

Calling means BB will bet into you again on the turn, and you won't have any better idea of his holdings.

Re: Another fun give me a line hand.
 

Let me expand on my thinking here:

If the rock has AA or KK, he's betting the nuts on the flop. If he has QQ, JJ, or AQ, he might bet the flop to see where he stands. UTG+1 cold-calling a 3 bet likely indicates any hand from AQ - 77 since we have no read on him. I think it's likely that at least one of these guys is behind.

If we're ahead of both we don't want to blow them off the pot with a raise. I think we're likely behind, but we have some drawing options to catch up so I don't want to fold to a single SB when I'm getting 10:1.

Can someone convince me that folding here is a better option than calling/raising?

Also, I am debating whether maybe we just want to raise UTG+1 out of the pot to get heads up against the rock. (If he only goes to showdown 10% we might be able to steal this pot on the turn HU if a scary card falls)

Thoughts?

Re: Another fun give me a line hand.
 

I'm reluctantly folding, here, but I feel like a pussy, and I hope that Villan #2 takes him to SD so I can see what he had. BB's range of preflop 3-bets makes me think that we're already behind...his betting out on the flop makes me think that he's concerned about the flush (i.e. he's not holding AK or Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]), but I don't think the flush draw is enough to save us.

(I just threw this into PokerStove, giving BB AA-JJ, AKs-KQs, and AKo...our equity is barely over 10%, and we're being beaten by the random 3rd hand at 15%. Edit: I just re-ran it, taking away KK from Villan, and our equity barely ticked up, but the random hand jumped a couple of points.)

Raising is the other possibility, fully prepared to fold to a 3-bet from either Villan. If they both call, I'm check/folding the turn unless a T or [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] falls.

Re: Another fun give me a line hand.
 

Personally I'd raise, mainly for cheap info but hoping for folds. stats can never tell you what someone is currently playing and TT short-handed is no slouch. He doesn't appear afraid of K but with his tightness he may fold thinking he's up against an EP raiser's set since you're not deferring to the aggressor. I say give him a chance to fold (and I'd fold to a reraise). You don't showdown 10% with all winners unless you've thrown away a few. But the risk is he thinks you're on a flush draw and willing to call down if no other spades appear. Even still, one more spade falling might actually convince him it IS time to fold

And secondly, as pf aggressor, even with two spades on the board, had I flopped KKK with an EP raiser there's no way I'd lead out short-handed. I would be thinking that the pot is small enough to risk losing that 9sb w/KKK against the chances the draws don't come in and I get an extra handful of bets by letting others lead until the river. So I don't think he's betting KKK.

Re: Another fun give me a line hand.
 

if he is capable of betting on the come, then reraise with the intent of folding to a bet on turn, if you dont think BB would bet on come then fold right there.

Re: Another fun give me a line hand.
 

I'd have to say a raise or fold. More likely fold, as BB probably has top pair. A raise gets you info but I would fold to a reraise or an opening bet on the turn, if I didn't pickup the set.

Why bother calling?

Re: Another fun give me a line hand.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why bother calling?

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
If we're ahead of both we don't want to blow them off the pot with a raise. I think we're likely behind, but we have some drawing options to catch up so I don't want to fold to a single SB when I'm getting 10:1.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Another fun give me a line hand.
 

If we call we'll be giving UTG+1 11:1 on his call. He'd be right to call here with any 2, A3o and even J4o assuming that BB has missed the flop. Do we really want that?

Re: Another fun give me a line hand.
 

We do if our equity is greater than 33%. (Which, I'm not saying it is. I'm just, you know, sayin'...)

I have flip-flopped all over the place on this hand. I think that probably the best line in my mind is to raise the flop and fold to a re-raise. There, I said it. And, I'll probably change my mind again in about an hour.

Re: Another fun give me a line hand.
 

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:</font><hr />
I have flip-flopped all over the place on this hand. I think that probably the best line in my mind is to raise the flop and fold to a re-raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's funny, me too. Let's say there is a 10% chance (REALLY high estimate) that he gets frisky with AQs here, and that he 3-bets with these hands on the flop indiscriminately, so long as he at LEAST has a BD draw.

The following hands beat me:
6 JJ
6 QQ
3 KK
6 AA
12 AK

And I beat the following hands:
4 AQs (I doubt he's 3-betting anything less than this pre-flop)

So, only A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] will 3-bet here lets say, the red suiteds aren't very happy.

So, now 2 out of the 35 hands that 3-bet us on the flop we are ahead of, and he's only 3-betting those 2 10% of the time. This is an UGLY situation.

Now, this doesn't look like we want to call either, so why not just fold? Well, I gave you 2 important pieces of information in the first post, "has gone to showdown only 10% of the time, almost always showing down winners." You picked up on this when you said: "If he only goes to showdown 10% we might be able to steal this pot on the turn HU if a scary card falls." It's a big pot now, remember that this is the time to win the pot. And as a bonus, if he's this weak, you don't need the best hand, you just need to make him think you do. People who show down this few hands, and have the winners so often are folding waaay too much. They don't like seeing a flop get raised when there's an overcard out there.

The rest of the hand:
Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">7 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+1 folds, BB calls.

Turn: (6.75 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB folds.

Final Pot: 7.75 BB

Did I push him off JJ or QQ? Who knows, maybe but that's not important. Even if he dumped his AQ on the turn getting 7.75:1, he's making a mistake, and that's what we're trying to do here. There is no pre-flop 3-betting hand he should've folded onthe turn, but through position, and aggression against an opponent we have a read on, we were able to convince him otherwise.

Re: Another fun give me a line hand.
 

This hand has been very instructional for me for two reasons:

1. Importance of factoring your table reads into your play
2. Importance of using positional raises to thin the field.

Thanks mmbt0ne!

-Salty