2/4 Check-up Flopping the Nuts and not even considering FPS lines
 

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (7 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (3 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB folds, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, MP1 calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 calls.

River: (7.50 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 calls.

Final Pot: 9.50 BB

Anyone even suggest thinking about another line here?

Re: 2/4 Check-up Flopping the Nuts and not even considering FPS lines
 

I would raise preflop. I would bet the flop too, why go for the checkraise when noone might even bet?

After that it's all elementary.

Re: 2/4 Check-up Flopping the Nuts and not even considering FPS lines
 

Looks fine to me. You will get raised @ river if he hits a runner runner flush, what do you do then .. call or fold [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: 2/4 Check-up Flopping the Nuts and not even considering FPS lines
 

I have the Kc in my hand, if he has the actc or acjc he gets an extra bet. Raise preflop seems completely unnecessary and I would argue bad. It is not for value vs this EP limper. His hand is better than mine and I have no fold equity and I'm oop.

Re: 2/4 Check-up Flopping the Nuts and not even considering FPS lines
 

[ QUOTE ]
I have the Kc in my hand, if he has the actc or acjc he gets an extra bet. Raise preflop seems completely unnecessary and I would argue bad. It is not for value vs this EP limper. His hand is better than mine and I have no fold equity and I'm oop.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you had said he was a tight limper that would make a difference. I assumed an unknown since you gave no reads. Against an unknown openlimping UTG+1 I am raising this every time.

Re: 2/4 Check-up Flopping the Nuts and not even considering FPS lines
 

raise that flop

raise that preflop

raise yourself on the turn. you have the nuts

Re: 2/4 Check-up Flopping the Nuts and not even considering FPS lines
 

Is that good though einbert? What are you accomplishing. Ok, force out the bb. (maybe) Build a pot. (Ok?) Start teaching him preflop that you have a big hand so that he will fold on the flop? (This seems like the most valid reason to me) Just exploring the thought process of the pf raise here. I was very comfortable calling. It also appears as if my deception collected me a lot of extra bets. Any considerations to the value of that when deciding between call and raise preflop?

Re: 2/4 Check-up Flopping the Nuts and not even considering FPS lines
 

get it headsup and increase your chances of taking it down

Re: 2/4 Check-up Flopping the Nuts and not even considering FPS lines
 

I assume we are all in agreement that the pf raise is far from guaranteed to get it hu. Does it really increase your chances of taking it down? Can you estimate by how much?

Re: 2/4 Check-up Flopping the Nuts and not even considering FPS lines
 

that's hard to estimate. 3 handed though you probably have the best hand

besides, you flopped the nuts

Re: 2/4 Check-up Flopping the Nuts and not even considering FPS lines
 

My thought process is that you probably have the best hand, your hand is more likely to hold up against one player than two, and dead money in the pot is good.

The almost two thirds of the time that you flop nothing more than an overcard or two, you will be glad that you have a decent chance to take it down with a flop bet.

Of course the X% of the time that you flop a straight, two pair or trips you would rather the BB still be in the hand, but the times you will flop nothing or one pair are many more than the times you will flop something like that.

If the limper were a very tight PF, well playing postflop player than I would be less inclined to raise, for sure. But with no other information I would assume that my hand beats his range of hands and obviously my hand is better than the completely random hand that belongs to the BB.

Re: 2/4 Check-up Flopping the Nuts and not even considering FPS lines
 

Oof. I don't want to be results oriented here I am not advocating call because I flopped the nuts. I didn't get any money out of the BB or try to slowplay to get him to call. I just don't think I mind having him in there. If ep has any PP any ace or KQ, I'm not ahead preflop. I do understand that *maybe* my aggression preflop will get him to fold. But I don't necessarily like the fact that going into the flop I have a required bet, and probably a required turn bet too.

Re: 2/4 Check-up Flopping the Nuts and not even considering FPS lines
 

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, Hero checks.

Flop: (2.50 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 1.75 BB

Another hand that just came up, curious how you guys react to it as I think some of the same concepts we are talking about here apply. Do you object to this line?

Re: 2/4 Check-up Flopping the Nuts and not even considering FPS lines
 

I think raising in that spot elicits suspicion so I'm very picky there. sometimes I won't even raise AJ. instead I bet any flop, or checkraise.

here I would bet the flop. he only has to fold about 30% of the time

Re: 2/4 Check-up Flopping the Nuts and not even considering FPS lines
 

[ QUOTE ]
Oof. I don't want to be results oriented here I am not advocating call because I flopped the nuts. I didn't get any money out of the BB or try to slowplay to get him to call. I just don't think I mind having him in there. If ep has any PP any ace or KQ, I'm not ahead preflop. I do understand that *maybe* my aggression preflop will get him to fold. But I don't necessarily like the fact that going into the flop I have a required bet, and probably a required turn bet too.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not 'required' for sure, but I think it is +EV to bet the flop almost every time the BB folds and the limper calls your PFR. The turn is a whole different story though, in my opinion.

My bad on accusing you of being results oriented.

The BB, if he is loose, will call with a ton of hands you have dominated and that is +EV big time. Most BB will call here with hands like K9, KT, JT, JQ, and others and when that happens it is bigtime money in your pocket. You could also have the limper dominated.

The limper has you dominated here a very small portion of the time in my opinion, you have him dominated a ton more. KQ has you in awful shape but you're not in bad shape at all against Ax, especially if he is bad postflop.

If the limper has a PP &lt;JJ and the BB has a hand he will fold to your PF raise, it is really good for you to raise this PF because you have a much easier chance of getting the PP to fold incorrectly (depending on the player of course) and you get a SB of dead money in the pot.

I think the dead money when it occurs is really nice, who knows maybe I am overrating it. I think it comes down to the combo of that (if BB is tighter) and the BB calling you with hands you are way ahead of (if he is looser) that makes this a really +EV raise.

Re: 2/4 Check-up Flopping the Nuts and not even considering FPS lines
 

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, Hero checks.

Flop: (2.50 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 1.75 BB

Another hand that just came up, curious how you guys react to it as I think some of the same concepts we are talking about here apply. Do you object to this line?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, you have the best hand here PF almost every single time. And you're going to outflop him 2/3 of the time even if you don't have him dominated. I would have raised PF and bet the flop, folding to a raise.

Re: 2/4 Check-up Flopping the Nuts and not even considering FPS lines
 

[ QUOTE ]
The BB, if he is loose, will call with a ton of hands you have dominated and that is +EV big time. Most BB will call here with hands like K9, KT, JT, JQ, and others and when that happens it is bigtime money in your pocket. You could also have the limper dominated.

[/ QUOTE ]

The point that the BB is going to call anyway when I will have him crushed is a very good one that I was not considering enough. The equity edge I can have in spots like this certainly does suggest raising preflop. Thanks. The 77 hand is still a seperate situation. I do agree I could just fire one bullet on the flop with the 77 however the flop is two cards above ten. I really lower the fold frequency a lot in this scenario since I can't see any of the hands that add to 20 or 21 folding the flop for one bet since they at least have a gutshot maybe a pair. Any time he calls even one flop bet it's really hard for me from the turn on out.

Re: 2/4 Check-up Flopping the Nuts and not even considering FPS lines
 

I wouldn't raise preflop. I think he did the right move there.

Re: 2/4 Check-up Flopping the Nuts and not even considering FPS lines
 

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't raise preflop. I think he did the right move there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well why don't you add your reasoning to the discussion, we already have a nice one going.

Re: 2/4 Check-up Flopping the Nuts and not even considering FPS lines
 

[ QUOTE ]
Any time he calls even one flop bet it's really hard for me from the turn on out.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't mind check/folding the turn. He called us on what to him must be a somewhat scary board unless he has an ace or flopped a monster, so unless he has the broadway gutshot (which has ten outs against us) he is beating us soundly almost every time, and when we're behind we only have two outs.

Re: 2/4 Check-up Flopping the Nuts and not even considering FPS lines
 

Oh I agree here einbert, even his broadway draw is ten outs so he's not robbing us blind if we occasionally make that mistake on the turn. Definitely close between betting out the 77 on the flop or folding it, I tend to think with the ace-jack flop a fold is safe enough. Queen Ten I'll be more inclined to bet into him (the play any weak ace philosophy makes me lean this way)

Re: 2/4 Check-up Flopping the Nuts and not even considering FPS lines
 

I missed it was not raised preflop. Raise preflop.

Re: 2/4 Check-up Flopping the Nuts and not even considering FPS lines
 

I raise preflop. You usually have the best hand. You give yourself a much better chance to win with no showdown.

I don't understand the flop check at all. It's pretty contradictory to your title and really serves no purpose.

Re: 2/4 Check-up Flopping the Nuts and not even considering FPS lines
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand the flop check at all. It's pretty contradictory to your title and really serves no purpose.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you kidding? It completely baffles you? It serves no purpose? Sorry but all I think of when I read your reply is Huh? Huh? Huh? Really?

Re: 2/4 Check-up Flopping the Nuts and not even considering FPS lines
 

The preflop decision is marginal. A raise gives you intitiative and a chance to take this down on the flop for a single bet. You don't need to figure out a particular percentage, just know that this is the case. Then adjust based on your reads. If this is a tight limper and a loose big blind and at least one of them is inclined to get to showdown the raise doesn't have as much value.

But even if it's a typical limper and a typical bb raising isn't necessary here.

Just bet the flop.

Re: 2/4 Check-up Flopping the Nuts and not even considering FPS lines
 

Well, this should be clear but I'll elaborate... When I don't raise preflop that implies I'm assuming a tight limper. If he's a tight limper he's hit that flop, maybe really hard. If he's hit that flop he would bet if checked to. If he's gonna bet when checked to a cr would work. Now this is where I mention that you guys are adamantly telling me I need to lead the flop. Then I say Huh? The reasons I have to lead the flop are...

Re: 2/4 Check-up Flopping the Nuts and not even considering FPS lines
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand the flop check at all. It's pretty contradictory to your title and really serves no purpose.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you kidding? It completely baffles you? It serves no purpose? Sorry but all I think of when I read your reply is Huh? Huh? Huh? Really?

[/ QUOTE ]

What a constructive response.

Why did you post this hand?

Re: 2/4 Check-up Flopping the Nuts and not even considering FPS lines
 

It also should have been completely obvious that I mean, these points do not come across to me as even remotely obvious and therefore some serious elaboration would help.

Re: 2/4 Check-up Flopping the Nuts and not even considering FPS lines
 

I think you ARE Cinnamon Wind. No one else makes such bad, pointless posts with absolutely no reads. Then defends their play in hindsight by claiming we should look at your play first, and use THAT to determine what your reads were on your opponents, because clearly you played it perfectly.

You're not checking up on anything. You're absolutely convinced you played this the best way possible, even though you know raising preflop and leading this flop will be more popular responses, because they're more generally correct, and will continue to defend your line based on reads you never gave and action that actually took place.

you're such a treasure to have around in the forum.

Re: 2/4 Check-up Flopping the Nuts and not even considering FPS lines
 

First, even a tight limper didn't necessarily hit this flop. Second, why on earth would you prefer to check/raise this as opposed to betting out and hopefully being raised by the limper? You may get BB to call one at a time but not two cold.

Re: 2/4 Check-up Flopping the Nuts and not even considering FPS lines
 

I have yet to read anything that you write that implies you have any interest in the opinions of others. And when you get unsolicited opinions the tone of your posts suggests people are stupid for making other suggestions.

If you really like being challenged and it's just in your nature to respond argumentatively and dismissively, change your attitude. Please.

Re: 2/4 Check-up Flopping the Nuts and not even considering FPS lines
 

Thank you chief, I was ignoring the big blind and that's a good point. I guess I gotta stop ignoring him since I ignored him both preflop and on the flop. As far as prefering to cr, my thoughts at the time were that he isn't terribly likely to raise just an ace here, but he will certainly bet it and then call down. Looked like an extra half bet to cr at least. It is certainly also an extra half bet if that BB will call one on the flop too though.

Edit: Errant, you're adding least of all and just cluttering and causing pages and pages to appear, seriously, let it go.

Re: 2/4 Check-up Flopping the Nuts and not even considering FPS lines
 

He doesn't need to fold a majority of the time to make a flop bet correct. Do you see why? I'll let others elaborate.

And why are you so terrified of the turn!??! There you are again... I don't want to make a play on the flop because I'm afraid of the turn... good lord, do you think these are signs you should learn how to play the turn? it tends to show up right after the flop. Every hand.

Re: 2/4 Check-up Flopping the Nuts and not even considering FPS lines
 

[ QUOTE ]
Thank you chief, I was ignoring the big blind and that's a good point. I guess I gotta stop ignoring him since I ignored him both preflop and on the flop. As far as prefering to cr, my thoughts at the time were that he isn't terribly likely to raise just an ace here, but he will certainly bet it and then call down. Looked like an extra half bet to cr at least. It is certainly also an extra half bet if that BB will call one on the flop too though.

Edit: Errant, you're adding least of all and just cluttering and causing pages and pages to appear, seriously, let it go.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's taken you about 6 posts to provide all the information we needed to make informed responses to your original post. Try including all the pertinent information next time.

Re: 2/4 Check-up Flopping the Nuts and not even considering FPS lines
 

[ QUOTE ]
He doesn't need to fold a majority of the time to make a flop bet correct. Do you see why? I'll let others elaborate.

And why are you so terrified of the turn!??! There you are again... I don't want to make a play on the flop because I'm afraid of the turn... good lord, do you think these are signs you should learn how to play the turn? it tends to show up right after the flop. Every hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is another completely wasted post which doesn't even make sense.
1. I never implied he has to fold a majority of the time.
2. That is in reference to the 77 hand, which is seperate. I'm commenting that the situation is probably break even and therefore since the turn is difficult to play one way I needn't select that option.

You're nitpicking my every post on here is a complete waste of everyones time. I'm tired of even defending myself since your attacks are so baseless.

Re: 2/4 Check-up Flopping the Nuts and not even considering FPS lines
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's taken you about 6 posts to provide all the information we needed to make informed responses to your original post. Try including all the pertinent information next time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Quoi est ta probleme?

Re: 2/4 Check-up Flopping the Nuts and not even considering FPS lines
 

Has it ever occurred to you that besides what issues I have with your tone and quality of your posts that I'm actually simply attempting to discuss poker strategy?

Because you seem to take my tone of "here's my answer" as "here's ErrantNight being a dick on purpose to me"

I happen to be pretty good at poker. The fact that you don't like me doesn't change that. I think most of these questions you're asking about are pretty simple. I'm offering my argument.

1. You should lead this flop because you frequently have the best hand and it's a scary board if your opponent hasn't hit and will fold hands that have outs against you. This is easier if you raise preflop.

2. I know precisely which hand it is. Which is why I made my comments directly in response to it. It's not a break even flop proposition, particularly against an unknown. You need a specific read to make it so. I believe you're creating, intentionally or unintentionally, disparity between the actual ev of flop situations and your perceived ev of flop situations because you frequently find the turn difficult to play. IMO this is a huge leak.

Why is it a huge leak? Because if this is indicative of your thinking, it impacts a large portion of hands. Not just when you have a medium pocket pair on the button, or in the big blind, or wherever else.

But my suggesting this IS NOT AN ATTACK ON YOU. If I'm wrong, fine. I'm not judging you. I'm not saying this to make you feel bad about yourself, or to piss you off. I'm saying this because it can be gleaned from your posts.

I'm quite likely incorrect. You think this is break even because apparantly you believe this opponent will play any A, so you'd prefer not to bet because it creates a sticky turn situation if he calls. I think the likelihood of him playing any A makes it an easier bet. It gives you a chance to take it down, and makes it easier to determine a turn course of action if he calls. You don't have to change your mind, this is merely my opinion.

Re: 2/4 Check-up Flopping the Nuts and not even considering FPS lines
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand the flop check at all. It's pretty contradictory to your title and really serves no purpose.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you kidding? It completely baffles you? It serves no purpose? Sorry but all I think of when I read your reply is Huh? Huh? Huh? Really?

[/ QUOTE ]

perhaps a haiku will help:

If you flop the nuts
And it's checked around to you
You should bet it out


As CDC Says
"Betting is underrated"
Too bad he's a fish

Re: 2/4 Check-up Flopping the Nuts and not even considering FPS lines
 

It wasn't checked around to me, I was the sb. I wish you guys would at least look at the hands. Sorry sthief, I really like your posts and value your input but not when you don't even read the hand. Not that the forum cares, but I sent Errant a PM and am sparing you all the agony of reading any future conversations between he and I by ignoring his posts, as I find them to be worthless to me anyway.

Re: 2/4 Check-up Flopping the Nuts and not even considering FPS lines
 

[ QUOTE ]
It wasn't checked around to me, I was the sb. I wish you guys would at least look at the hands. Sorry sthief, I really like your posts and value your input but not when you don't even read the hand. Not that the forum cares, but I sent Errant a PM and am sparing you all the agony of reading any future conversations between he and I by ignoring his posts, as I find them to be worthless to me anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]


some sacrifices in accuracy must be made when writing a haiku. I read the post and responded already. I tried to break the tension by providing some humorous haikus. apparently you don't like humor.

Signing off,

Bob "Coach" Ciaffone