stop trying to \'protect\' your hand
 

look unless you can walk over to the other players' houses in the 20 seconds party gives you and point a gun to their heads and threaten them to fold, you won't protect your hand. just bet for value and bet for value and bet for value and bet for value and bet for value. oh, and bet for value. there will be times when you can get more value on your hand by gambling and waiting until later streets or going for check raises, but you won't protect your effing hand. just get the money in when you have the best of it.

Re: stop trying to \'protect\' your hand
 

Yeah!

I'm still going to try to protect my hand sometimes though.

Re: stop trying to \'protect\' your hand
 

Protecting your hand doesn't always mean you want your opponents to fold - you can protect your hand by making sure anyone who's going to call anyway isn't getting the right odds to beat you.

Re: stop trying to \'protect\' your hand
 

I think that 'protecting' your hand is raising for value while trying to get others with improper odds to fold BUT that does not mean you care whether they fold or not.

The way I understand it: If I don't raise and someone has the odds to chase a gutshot and they do chase it then I don't get any extra from it. If I raise and they don't have the odds to call and they (properly) fold then I just increased my pot equity. If they (improperly) call then I just got more money because of my pot equity.

But I agree with you, all these "how do I protect my set on an all diamond flop" posts are dumb

Re: stop trying to \'protect\' your hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
...unless you can walk over to the other players' houses in the 20 seconds party gives you and point a gun to their heads and threaten them to fold...

[/ QUOTE ]
That would be sweet.

Re: stop trying to \'protect\' your hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
...unless you can walk over to the other players' houses in the 20 seconds party gives you and point a gun to their heads and threaten them to fold...

[/ QUOTE ]
That would be sweet.

[/ QUOTE ]

i prefer the nonviolent way, of causing isolated power outages to just the outlet their computer is plugged into

Re: stop trying to \'protect\' your hand
 

While I agree with your intent...

I think it's probably worthwhile for people to learn HOW to protect their hand.

The problem is that people (a) don't value bet enough, trying to be tricky, and also (b) perceive that they have a hand that is best but which their opponents have outs against, and automatically go into "wait for the turn" mode

it's a phase. they'll grow/learn out of it. but it's frustrating to watch person after person post about how they waited for the turn when they shouldn't have, and without ever reading the plethora of posts detailing when you should and when you shouldn't... or simply visit that section of SSH.

Re: stop trying to \'protect\' your hand
 

He said everything you need to know on this subject. Looks like many people haven't even read SSHE in this forum....sad.

Re: stop trying to \'protect\' your hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
He said everything you need to know on this subject. Looks like many people haven't even read SSHE in this forum....sad.

[/ QUOTE ]

there are tons of situations, and a lot of subleties to protecting, betting for value

its not a simple program, yes Ed Miller laid out a great base guildlines, but it doesn't cover all situations you'll see

Re: stop trying to \'protect\' your hand
 

Of course one book can't cover all situations thats honestly impossible, he gives you the information so when you see a situtation you can analyize it with his information, and then make the correct decision. Just by what the orginal poster of this thread said, you can tell they didn't read SSHE.

Re: stop trying to \'protect\' your hand
 

This is an internet forum, and microlimits is a beginners game. When people post these "How do I ..." questions, they are looking for advise, not to be berated for asking a question. At some point everyone here has had questions about how they played a hand or if there was a better line or else this site wouldn't exist. Getting angry at new players for trying to get better defeats the principle of this site. Lay off the caffeine and lighten up.

Re: stop trying to \'protect\' your hand
 

Oh EAT ME!!!!!! I'll protect my friggin' hand when I damn well feel like it. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

This post would have been better titled something, "stop trying to 'slow-play' your hand. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Plus which, why the hell is there a section on it in SSH if you're not supposed to do it? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Any resemblence to that of a person pissed off, is completely without warrant. I was making a point, to be sure, but added some piss-ant to it for the fun of it. So please don't take it personal.

Re: stop trying to \'protect\' your hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Plus which, why the hell is there a section on it in SSH if you're not supposed to do it?


[/ QUOTE ]

why is it that 9 out of 10 slowplay posts, the OP would have made more by playing straight forward because ppl automatically assume, oh I flopped Quads gotta slowplay, oh I flopped the nut flush gotta slowplay

people don't pay much attention to the circumstances needed to slowplay and hence do it incorrectly a very large % of the time from what I've seen

Re: stop trying to \'protect\' your hand
 

Exactly why I was saying, the title should have been, 'stop "slow-playing" your hands. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: stop trying to \'protect\' your hand
 

hmm.
my first thought when i read first post was that he means people in micros arent folding when they have anything resembling a hand (at least in 50c/1 at PTY)...

this does not ness concern slowplaying, but waiting till the turn to raise so that a draw doesnt have odds to call will be forcing players to make bad calls...

but IF you assume people WILL NOT FOLD DRAWS EVER, then betting/raising for value might make you more money in the long run. that you force them to make bad calls has more value not only because they have bad odds, but because they will then be forced into a lose/lose situations where no matter what they do, you benefit.

if they never fold, then getting the morons to put as much money in as possible throughout the hand is your best option.

Re: stop trying to \'protect\' your hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Protecting your hand doesn't always mean you want your opponents to fold - you can protect your hand by making sure anyone who's going to call anyway isn't getting the right odds to beat you.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the same thing as 'betting for value'.

Because you have more equity in the pot then they do, they are contributing more than their share. So... it is for value.

He didn't say 'stop betting'. He said, 'stop trying to protect your hand'.

KO

Re: stop trying to \'protect\' your hand
 

Hey i'll admit to positing some questions with obvious answers in them, i'm not getting mad at people for that. Im not saying i know everything lol i'm still a micro limit player too. Its just the micro limit forum is getting flooded by posts like these. I think it would help these people out if they tried to figure out some of the most obvious answeres to some of these posts on their own, or read a book for that matter.

Re: stop trying to \'protect\' your hand
 

That is not the same thing as betting for value, they are two different subjects. For example i have K9 and i middle pair of 9's, and someoen bets into me and i raise on the flop to push out draws and to buy some outs, "to protect my hand" this may or may not be the best hand but i'm trying to make it less likly someoen will draw out on me. That is much difffern't that say flopped top 2 pair and raising for value.

Re: stop trying to \'protect\' your hand
 

I disagree. I can't count the number of times I flopped TPWK in one of the blinds, checked it, had it check all the way around, had higher card come on the turn, and watched someone walk away with a pot that would probably have been mine if only I had bet the flop.

Re: stop trying to \'protect\' your hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Protecting your hand doesn't always mean you want your opponents to fold - you can protect your hand by making sure anyone who's going to call anyway isn't getting the right odds to beat you.

[/ QUOTE ]

you are right. i never want my opponents to fold their weaker hands, just their stronger hands [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img].

Re: stop trying to \'protect\' your hand
 

Maybe this is splitting hairs, but I think the situations are different. Most of what I see posted regarding protecting a hand is "AK flops Axx" where xx is suited or induces straight draws and people would like to get a line or consolation because they are steaming a bit. What you appear to be talking about is something like having QTo in the blind and hitting the ten as top pair. Similar but slightly different, in both situations I think the "correct" play most of the time is to bet for value. I am guilty of posting one of the Axx hands and the response made complete sense. If the pot is relatively large, just bet for value, you are not going to be able to protect your hand. SSHE states the same thing in the section about protecting your hand. The example he has about CR'ing to protect your hand specifically mentions that the person to your right raised preflop. In that scenario, this tactic is effective because of the conditions at the table. Most of the time bet for value.

Re: stop trying to \'protect\' your hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
That is not the same thing as betting for value, they are two different subjects. For example i have K9 and i middle pair of 9's, and someoen bets into me and i raise on the flop to push out draws and to buy some outs, "to protect my hand" this may or may not be the best hand but i'm trying to make it less likly someoen will draw out on me. That is much difffern't that say flopped top 2 pair and raising for value.

[/ QUOTE ]

when you read a lot of micro posts about protecting your hand, it is refering to how to prevent the noobs from sucking out on you when you have a good hand. (like a set on a drawey board). what fuji was saying was that in a lot of these games protecting your hand just isnt possible...at least to a flush/straight and sometimes two pair draw. with a set on flop w/two to a flush on these games, you should bet/raise the flop for value rather than raise on the turn so that opps will have to face two cold (see my post above for my reasoning). he has quotation marks around protect in the title of this thread because a lot of people dont understand when a hand can and cannot be "protected"

Re: stop trying to \'protect\' your hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That is not the same thing as betting for value, they are two different subjects. For example i have K9 and i middle pair of 9's, and someoen bets into me and i raise on the flop to push out draws and to buy some outs, "to protect my hand" this may or may not be the best hand but i'm trying to make it less likly someoen will draw out on me. That is much difffern't that say flopped top 2 pair and raising for value.

[/ QUOTE ]

when you read a lot of micro posts about protecting your hand, it is refering to how to prevent the noobs from sucking out on you when you have a good hand. (like a set on a drawey board). what fuji was saying was that in a lot of these games protecting your hand just isnt possible...at least to a flush/straight and sometimes two pair draw. with a set on flop w/two to a flush on these games, you should bet/raise the flop for value rather than raise on the turn so that opps will have to face two cold (see my post above for my reasoning). he has quotation marks around protect in the title of this thread because a lot of people dont understand when a hand can and cannot be "protected"

[/ QUOTE ]

Protecting your hands against a chaser is where the term "Race" comes into play.

How many times have you flopped something decent with 3-4 others in the hand? You know you're a current favorite at the time, but there are two more cards to come.

You grit your teeth and keep clicking the raise button like some old lady in a slot tournament! Then win or lose, you open the HH up to see what the hell these mopes were chasing your @ss down with! LOL

Re: stop trying to \'protect\' your hand
 

This is what makes the small stakes o so profitable, you can't necesarily "protect" your hand the way it is being discused, but you can give people incorrect odds to call. When they do call, your hand isn't protected, but you just profited.

Hooray for Sklansky bucks. The more you think of this as making theoretical money, the less the bad beats will affect you.

Re: stop trying to \'protect\' your hand
 

i apologize if i sounded annoyed, but i was. when i posted this i think i saw three "how can i protect my hand" posts in a row. there are a couple things that i have come to realize:

1) if somebody has a draw, then they wont fold unless they have half a brain and the pot size is 2sb. if your set gets beat by the flush on the river, then you just got beat. you did what you could, but if the 3rd spade comes it comes.

2) you want people with their weak mid pairs and bottom pairs calling all the way and on 5th unimproved. and again, if they catch their two pair or trips on the river so be it. you did what you could and got beat by the deck. unless you have some special hack nothing is really going to protect your hand... you can give worse odds for people lingering with weaker hands that are still live against your tptk but that is about all you can do. most of the time you will destroy these people. let them have a pot or two - it keeps them coming back until they go broke.

Re: stop trying to \'protect\' your hand
 

what is SSHE (can you spell it out for me)? ive only read "Play Poker Like the Pros" by my favorite author and poker pro Phil Hellmuth, Jr.

Re: stop trying to \'protect\' your hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Protecting your hand doesn't always mean you want your opponents to fold - you can protect your hand by making sure anyone who's going to call anyway isn't getting the right odds to beat you.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the same thing as 'betting for value'.

Because you have more equity in the pot then they do, they are contributing more than their share. So... it is for value.

[/ QUOTE ]

That was exactly my point. The OP seemed to imply that protecting your hand meant forcing a fold. But like you say, so long as you have the equity advantage, you are still protecting your hand by betting for value when it puts your opponents in a lose-lose situation. You you don't care if they fold or call - either way they lose.

The OP's call to 'bet for value' over and over could be taken to mean just bet out when it's your turn to act.

The way I see it, protecting your hand means getting even more value by, for example, check-raising to face your opponents with double bets. Especially in big pots, where even if betting out would be for value, an opponent could still call for value (eg with a gutshot if the pot is offering 10-1).

I think! This thread is making me get my definitions confused!

Re: stop trying to \'protect\' your hand
 

think about the way the posters that have the "how do i protect my hand" posts define "protect". im trying to get through to them in a way that they will understand.

[ QUOTE ]
protecting your hand means getting even more value by, for example, check-raising

[/ QUOTE ]

i did mention you could go for check raises and later streets to show your true strength.

Re: stop trying to \'protect\' your hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
i apologize if i sounded annoyed, but i was. when i posted this i think i saw three "how can i protect my hand" posts in a row.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, mine was one of them! Sorry about that!

Re: stop trying to \'protect\' your hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
what is SSHE (can you spell it out for me)? ive only read "Play Poker Like the Pros" by my favorite author and poker pro Phil Hellmuth, Jr.

[/ QUOTE ]

bloody flat view! I can't tell if someone's already responded to this:

Small Stakes Hold'em, by Ed Miller, Sklansky, and Malmuth

It's an okay book, I guess, if you like money. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Edit: D'oh! I think I missed your sarcasm. I know your posts are damn-good, but it's possible that you could learn that through other means... f-cking Helmuth, though, eh? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: stop trying to \'protect\' your hand
 

lol yea i know what you mean.
First of all when you raise and give someone with a gutshot incorrect odds to call and they call anyways, you are still protecting your hand, they are making a -EV play. When someone loses money then there must be someone making money and that person is you.

Re: stop trying to \'protect\' your hand
 

I agree with everything you said, thats why we all love the party skins.

Re: stop trying to \'protect\' your hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
I disagree. I can't count the number of times I flopped TPWK in one of the blinds, checked it, had it check all the way around, had higher card come on the turn, and watched someone walk away with a pot that would probably have been mine if only I had bet the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
Small pot, bet it for value.

If the pot was big, then yeah go for protection.

Re: stop trying to \'protect\' your hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
look unless you can walk over to the other players' houses in the 20 seconds party gives you and point a gun to their heads and threaten them to fold

[/ QUOTE ]

I bet a lot of them would still call.