Hybrid Cars
 

Anybody out there own one? Know somebody who does? You like? They like? Is the technology 30 years away from making the purchase of one worthwhile? I've read a little about them, but I haven't heard any personal testimonials.

Thanks

Re: Hybrid Cars
 

I know several people that own them. They love the gas mileage, but if you are the kind of person that likes big cars......

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A lady friend of mine gets 70+ (she says 74) mpg with this car.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/404774.asp

She loves it.

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Honda's hybred has been on the market for a couple of years now.

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Honda also has hybrid models of the civic and accord if you don't want the hardcore one.

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I've heard (but haven't done the math) that the extra cost of the vehicle is about equal to what you would pay at the pump for the extra gas over the average life of the vehicle.

May or may not be true, but worth exploring if your looking.

Also I read that there are supposed to be more than 50 different hybrid models on the market within the next 5 years or so. (that number may be off a bit cause it was a few months ago I read it).

I'm waiting for my car to die and for them to make a convertible model. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: Hybrid Cars
 

I have a Honda Civic Hybrid.

I get 38-41 mpg and split my driving about 50/50 between city and highway.

I figure to save $500/yr. on gas. The Hybrid is about $3,500 more than a non-hybrid. Hondas last more than seven years. It's a good investment.

And the engine turns off at traffic lights. Neat-o.

Re: Hybrid Cars
 

I am less than impressed by hybrid car technology, the cars that employ it, and the economics of it all. It's really not the super solution that everyone seems to think that it is [potentially going to be].

Also note that I am less than impressed with my first post in nearly a week. I'll try to do better next time. Sorry I missed that burrito falling apart thread, as well as any other thread I may have mustered a witty remark for.

Re: Hybrid Cars
 

What's the maintenance like? Do you need to take it to a dealer?

Part of my worry with hybrid cars is that since they've only been on the market a few years, no one really knows how they hold up over the long haul. If that part that combines electric and gas power to your wheels breaks, you're screwed. And who knows how long its lifetime is?

The Doc

Re: Hybrid Cars
 

Prius!

-Larry

Re: Hybrid Cars
 

i never verified it (and it's not as if i could REALLY verify it anyway), but i read that standard civics are overall more eco-friendly than hybrid civics in terms of production and ownership costs to the environment

Re: Hybrid Cars
 

I purchased an Accord Hybrid a month ago. I love it (but doesn't everyone love their new car...if they didn't wouldn't it be like admitting that you made a mistake, and who wants to do that?)

but it does have some serious performance for a sedan (255hp v6) and I'm getting around 35 mpg combined (but i drive mostly in stop n go traffic)
Don't know anything about the maintenance so far, but the hybrid components have lifetime warranties.

it's probably a little overpriced, though at 30k.

Re: Hybrid Cars
 

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i never verified it (and it's not as if i could REALLY verify it anyway), but i read that standard civics are overall more eco-friendly than hybrid civics in terms of production and ownership costs to the environment

[/ QUOTE ]

At this point and time some hybrids are more expensive to own as far as total cost of ownership. However, fuel price is going to go up, this can't be helped. As it does, even the most expensive hybrid will pay for itself. Their cost of manufacturing, in respect to the environment, are similar.

In the end hybrids are a pipe dream. They are being touted by politicians as a cure all and this is simply not the case. They will simply delay the inevitable. The next century will not be a prosperous one. I still think it is possible to solve our problems, but considering ITER (International fusion project) is 3 Years and 248 Days Past site designation due to political deadlock. They can't even agree on where to build it.

http://fire.pppl.gov/

If you watch this video:
http://128.42.10.107/media/Smalley_O...31101_300k.wmv
http://smalley.rice.edu/

Then if you look at our current political climate, you will see just how screwed me are.

Still hybrid cars are promoting enthusiasm and research. So hybrid cars help in multiple ways. They show politicians that there is political support and they promote technology development. Money is not a problem for solving this problem (a 5 cent nickel tax on gas would be enough). The problem is a lack of political commitment.

Zeno thinks we are screwed. And the more I learn about this subject, the more I am starting to agree with Les Misanthrope.

Still, I'm not going to knock the hybrid car arguement. In a few short years hybrids will be a no brainer and almost everyone will have one. It just won't won't be a cure.

Re: Hybrid Cars
 

Good post. But, why sell hybrids short? They're still in their infancy and they're really good from what I see. I drive a lot of miles. A lot of high speed highway miles. I'm doing 80 and get passed by a hybrid and that's cool. The gasless car will come out when we need it. As a previous poster said, the regular Civic makes more economic sense. That will change. There will be 10 years of sucky cars like 1973-1983 and then things will get better as the car companies make better cars. I expect most new cars in 5 years to have a hybrid technology.

Re: Hybrid Cars
 

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But, why sell hybrids short? They're still in their infancy and they're really good from what I see. I drive a lot of miles. A lot of high speed highway miles. I'm doing 80 and get passed by a hybrid and that's cool.

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I'm not selling hybrids short. I'm all for hybrids, I simply think the biggest advantage from hybrids is the signal they send to politicians that the public is ready to tackle our energy problem. They are a good stepping stone technology wise and I will probably buy either a hybrid or a biodiesel car soon. Technology will go a long way in helping hyrbrids get better, and so will gas prices.

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The gasless car will come out when we need it.

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No it won't. Without several miracles, it will come around after we need it. Like I said, the next century will not be a prosperous one.

Re: Hybrid Cars
 

Century is too long. Like I said, I think about 10 years of sucky cars and then things will improve and get even better. I was just talking about this at work yesterday with an Arab friend of mine. The Arab countries are really going to suffer when the oil runs out in 30 or 40 years. We're going to suffer too but we'll come out it in a few years better, stronger and not reliant on foreign oil. They'll be left with desert unless they start now to diversify. Also, when I use the term "hybrids" I don't necessarily mean the current gas/electric motors used in the Prius. I mean a fuel mileage boosting technology. Is there a term for that? You know, engines other than conventional gas/diesel that invoke advanced technology in order to achieve mileage increases? Kudos on the political angle. People will buy advanced technology as long as they don't get screwed by bad engineering. The OP's reason for posting in the first place....

Re: Hybrid Cars
 

[ QUOTE ]
What's the maintenance like? Do you need to take it to a dealer?

Part of my worry with hybrid cars is that since they've only been on the market a few years, no one really knows how they hold up over the long haul. If that part that combines electric and gas power to your wheels breaks, you're screwed. And who knows how long its lifetime is?

The Doc

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Maintenance? For a Honda? You need to get regular oil changes. Actually, the Hybrid has a special oil filter, so it's recommended that you take it to a dealer. As someone else mentioned, all parts are under warranty for 36k miles or 3 years.

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2005 could actually be the best oil year of all time, which means we have nowhere to go but down.

Re: Hybrid Cars
 

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Century is too long. Like I said, I think about 10 years of sucky cars and then things will improve and get even better.

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As for hybrids, I think we are agreeing. As for the century comment, I don't think you understand the scope of the problem of our energy needs.

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That's ok, I know you're a doom and gloom energy is running out global warming will melt the ice caps and drown us all kind of guy. I have faith we'll make it just fine.

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I was watching that Alan Alda Pretends To Be Interested In Science Show the other day. There was this gas station in Iceland that was making it's own hydrogen. That was cool. They've got the geothermal energy thing going on over there too.

The hydrogen cars are supposedly a more realistic long-term solution.

Re: Hybrid Cars
 

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The hydrogen cars are supposedly a more realistic long-term solution.

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I know little to nothing about hydrogen-based cars, but I can't stop thinking of The Hindenburg. I'll do my own research, but if you have any good links, please feel free to post/PM them.

Re: Hybrid Cars
 

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That's ok, I know you're a doom and gloom energy is running out global warming will melt the ice caps and drown us all kind of guy. I have faith we'll make it just fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

Doom and gloom.... hahaa... why don't you look up a little thing called reality. You know what, try and post an article from a reputable scientific journal that doesn't agree with what I say. I'm more then willing to put money on this [censored]. I've got $5,000 dollars that says the C14 in the atmosphere will decrease over the next ten years. When I say $5,000, I mean $5,000 in 2005 dollars. I am also willing to bet the same amount that oil will be more expensive (even adjusted for inflation) in 2010. That's $10,000 I will put on the line. I will also bet that middle eastern oil will be at crisis levels in 2020 (and I consider that a very safe bet). I am also willing to put down significant quantities of money saying that the scenerios presented by John F. Bookout (President of Shell USA) and the Nobel Laureate Richard Smalley are statistically accurate. Feel free to PM me. Put your money where your mouth is you ignorant fool. I've got a lawyer, I will put this [censored] on paper and post a copy of it on 2+2.

Re: Hybrid Cars
 

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[ QUOTE ]
The hydrogen cars are supposedly a more realistic long-term solution.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know little to nothing about hydrogen-based cars, but I can't stop thinking of The Hindenburg. I'll do my own research, but if you have any good links, please feel free to post/PM them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hydrogen cars are safe, don't worry. Their biggest problem is performance.

Re: Hybrid Cars
 

I'm saying that I don't expect a major distrubtion for more than a few years in our way of life due to energy shortages. You expect a century of problems. Let talk about reality and quality of life. I don't give a crap about C14 levels. Why don't you extapolate your C14 decrease into reality? What will a C14 decrease mean to the average person? How will a C14 decrease affect me? Oil more expensive in 2010? Wow, you're really going out on a limb there. Did your lawyer advise you to call me an ignorant fool? I think you should change your name to Henny Penny.

Re: Hybrid Cars
 

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Hydrogen cars are safe, don't worry. Their biggest problem is performance.

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but i thought most of the hydrogen gathered for hydrogen cars was from natural gas, which doesn't exactly make it a problem-solver. ideally we would want it from a ton of nuclear power plants (which don't exist) shooting at water right? but then that's using up uranium.

Re: Hybrid Cars
 

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Oil more expensive in 2010? Wow, you're really going out on a limb there. Did your lawyer advise you to call me an ignorant fool?

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I said oil will be more expensive because I didn't have any hard figures on me last night. I said crisis levels by 2020 and I stand by that figure. As for C14 levels, pick up a copy of National Geographic to see what it means for the average person. Global warming won't hit us hard by 2020, so I can't include that in a bet. But by 2020 there will be ton's of proof showing that our children are going to be hit pretty hard by global warming. Not one paper in a major peer review journal within the last 10 years says otherwise.

Re: Hybrid Cars
 

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I have a Honda Civic Hybrid.

I get 38-41 mpg and split my driving about 50/50 between city and highway.

I figure to save $500/yr. on gas. The Hybrid is about $3,500 more than a non-hybrid. Hondas last more than seven years. It's a good investment.

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A Civic LX with manual transmission and airbags retails for $15,860. A Civic Hybrid with manual tramsmission, $19,900. That's $4,000 more and it underestimates the hybrid's true cost since dealers are getting premiums for hybrids. My friend paid at least $10k more for his prius than a corolla would have cost.

You are getting 40 mpg, while the DX is at 34.5 mpg (averaging city and highway). You may note that the EPA thinks your highway mpg is higher, but that's because their test methodology is flawed for hybrids. Hybrids struggle to beat non-hybrid's highway mileage because the hybrid equipment is dead weight at a steady cruising speed. So you are about 6 mpg better than a Civic DX.

To save $500 a year in gas, at $2.30 per a gallon means you are saving 220 gallons a year. This means driving 30,000 miles a year. What are you, a cab driver?

At a $4k premium, it's going to take 160k miles before gas savings will equal it (not counting lost interest costs or additional maintainance cost). In reality, the hybrid premiums at current market prices are much higher than $4k, and hybrids simply don't come close to making financial sense.

But that's okay. They are cool cars that offer great psychic benefits to their owners. Eventually the cost of adding hybrid technology will drop to less than $1k and it will become standard equipment on virtually all cars. But until then, just be happy with your cool, but expensive, car.

Re: Hybrid Cars
 

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Hydrogen cars are safe, don't worry. Their biggest problem is performance.

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but i thought most of the hydrogen gathered for hydrogen cars was from natural gas, which doesn't exactly make it a problem-solver. ideally we would want it from a ton of nuclear power plants (which don't exist) shooting at water right? but then that's using up uranium.

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Which is also why we are so screwed. ITER is in political gridlock. There isn't that much fissionable material around. We will have to mine the moon if we want to ramp up fission. If we create hydrogen from coal power plants we are going to destroy the environment and tar sands are notoriously bad for the atmosphere. If you watch the smalley video, he comments about how hydrogen cars aren't that great because hydrogen simply doesn't store that much energy. If we develop fusion we are good, but like I said it's been in gridlock for over 3 years.

There is a thread in the politics section here:


Linky

In which Nicky G, Zeno, John Feeney, and I take on all of the doubters. You will see that the people argueing with us consistently get every single one of their arguements decimated. It takes a bit for the thread to get started, but once it gets going, it really got going. The skeptic arguements are not only very flimsy, but very repetitive to the point that they are probably just being trolls. They simply don't have much of an arguement.

Re: Hybrid Cars
 

When they're able to deliver me my groceries at a neglible cost, I will no longer have any reason to drive anywhere (provided we have at least some kind of public transportation for when I'm trying to get laid by someone out of reasonable walking/biking range).

So in my eyes, there's hope.

Re: Hybrid Cars
 

http://parazen.bio.indiana.edu/carbon.png
http://www.arctic.uoguelph.ca/cpe/en...s/co2_temp.jpg

http://parazen.bio.indiana.edu/demand.PNG

There is a newer one of the above graph. I'll switch it out when I find a copy, but this is close enough. WHen China and Russia become oil hungry, we are screwed.

Re: Hybrid Cars
 

[ QUOTE ]
http://parazen.bio.indiana.edu/demand.PNG

[/ QUOTE ]What's the O & G? Does that cover solar/wind/water? Has there been a more recent study?

Re: Hybrid Cars
 

Oil and gas from tar sands, shale, processed coal, etc.

There has been a more recent study. When I find it I will switch it out. Being lazy right now and I have work I have to get done. I don't have as much time for OOT as I used to.

Re: Hybrid Cars
 

All of the info you need on peak oil is right here:

http://www.peakoil.net/uhdsg/weo2004...psalaCode.html

http://www.peakoil.net/uhdsg/weo2004/PastDiscovery.jpg

http://www.peakoil.net/uhdsg/weo2004/UHDSG2004.jpg

Like I said, the future is not looking good.

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http://parazen.bio.indiana.edu/3-way.png

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As a balance to all of Wacki's depression induced, we're all gonna die posts, I suggest reading Michael Crichton's new book, State of Fear. It's about global warming, etc., and porvides a lot of documented research that debunks a lot of what the global warming rabble rousers/scientists are saying. I could post some of the links to the research here, but I'm too lazy and Crichton does a much better job than I would do anyway.

Re: Hybrid Cars
 

[ QUOTE ]
As a balance to all of Wacki's depression induced, we're all gonna die posts, I suggest reading Michael Crichton's new book, State of Fear. It's about global warming, etc., and porvides a lot of documented research that debunks a lot of what the global warming rabble rousers/scientists are saying. I could post some of the links to the research here, but I'm too lazy and Crichton does a much better job than I would do anyway.

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Wow, way to go. You picked a fiction book to counter my endless supply of peer reviewed scientific journals and Nobel prize Laureates. Way to go. Hey, there is this great book on physics by Crichton called sphere. You should read it!




"The best peer-reviewed science since Jurassic Park!"

--William Schlesinger, Dean of the Nicholas School of the Environment and Earth Sciences, Duke University

"Filled with laugh-out-loud errors."

--Michael Oppenheimer, Albert G. Milbank Professor of Geosciences and International Affairs, Princeton University

"The car chases drew me in, but the misleading graphs were the real fun."

--Dan Lashof, Science Director, Climate Center, Natural Resources Defense Council


http://www.wunderground.com/education/stateoffear.asp

Re: Hybrid Cars
 

Whether you want to give credit to it or not, the documentation is there.


Btw, if you don't mind me asking, what do you do for a living?

Re: Hybrid Cars
 

He sells cemetery plots. I don't think fiction is something Henny Penny does; unless it's peer reviewed, he won't read it. He doesn't seem to be able to come up with an original thought on his own. He just posts other people's thoughts like they are gospel. Henny Penny sounds like a real smart 12 year old: very naïve and immature.

Re: Hybrid Cars
 

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Whether you want to give credit to it or not, the documentation is there.

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I love it how wanton credit is given to entertainers over Nobel Laureates, almost the entire scientific community, the president of Shell gasoline, and a quick google search.

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Btw, if you don't mind me asking, what do you do for a living?

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It's complicated. I do a bunch of things and I've answered this question numerous times before. But for brevity I will answer that I am a computational biologist/bioinformatician.