AK limp reraise
 

Reasonable game. Villain is very Lag but good and thinking. Will reraise to isolate a lot, plays a lot of hands.

I have $900, Villain has $550

5-5 NL hold em. I limp UTG with A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. another limper, and a good player makes it $15 to go. Villain on button makes it $30. SB calls 30 cold, and I decide to make a play for the pot right there and make it $130 to go. Villain thinks for a while and calls. He starts whining about how I must have Aces when he has Kings, etc. etc.

Villain calls.

2 to the flop ($315): Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

What's my plan?

Re: AK limp reraise
 

Ignore any comments during the hand, unless you are for sure otherwise.

Way #1.

Villian has $420 left. Make a bet that would committ all his chips should he call. Like $250+. If he called he's committed. Yet if he thinks he's beat, he can easily fold and be satisfied with $420 left to play with.

Way #2.

You only have $120 invested in this pot. You flopped nothing. Check with intent to fold to a bet. Should you get checked back and pick up the flush draw ... play for value.

Re: AK limp reraise
 

yes ignore the comments, but what hands can you see him calling 130 pf with? jacks or better? would he have reraised with AA/KK/QQ? A 250-300 bet looks good about half the time.

Re: AK limp reraise
 

move in here. i would hate to bet 250 and have to fold for the rest with those BD draws.

Re: AK limp reraise
 

He has 330 left so I think I'm pushing here majority of time, unless he'll call with 88 type hand.

Was this at Niagara? I didn't know GBH had NL rings if it was there.

Hope it worked out.

Re: AK limp reraise
 

I would check. You can't possibly plan on representing AA-he's already called preflop so he's not entertaining the thought of you having AA seriously enough to fold (keep in mind he's not that deep). You made a play, got caught, and there's no point in turning that into a 500 dollar mistake.

Re: AK limp reraise
 

If villain is not an idiot you cannot be in the lead here. Worst case scenario he has QQ, maybe AA, best case, AK or JJ. Do whatever would put the fear of god into AA. If there is nothing you could do to make him fold AA, and I think this is probably the case given the stack sizes, give up or make him fold JJ/AK as cheaply as possible. You don't have to move in here to make him fold AK/JJ. Doing something off the wall like betting the absolute minimum on the flop and half the pot on the turn would probably be scarier.

Re: AK limp reraise
 

Thats just about the best advice. Don't make costly mistakes thinking you can carry through on a bluff.

Re: AK limp reraise
 

[ QUOTE ]
Doing something off the wall like betting the absolute minimum on the flop and half the pot on the turn would probably be scarier.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can see the fear in villain's head as we speak. "Oh god, he keeps betting so little, I have to call. I just have to. I hope that when we flip over our cards after this extended milking session he has AK or some pair I'm beating."

Re: AK limp reraise
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would check.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. Unless he he stupid, I don't think he is folding his JJ or KK if he called with them preflop, because he obviously doesn't think you have AA. And I doubt you're going to convince him you have a Q if he has JJ. Just check.

Re: AK limp reraise
 

I think the equity fold percentage is probably near linear from about 250 to all-in, and that there is a steep drop-off below 200-240. This based on opponants stack size and size of pot. So I think pushing doesn't give you much more fold equity then a $250 bet. You don't have to fold if pushed all in after this, because I think you've just manufactured some odds. But if you are just called and turn a blank then you do have to give up and mark it down as fold equity not experienced.

Re: AK limp reraise
 

[ QUOTE ]
move in here. i would hate to bet 250 and have to fold for the rest with those BD draws.

[/ QUOTE ]

If someone moves in here to a non-drawing board like this, then a good *thinking* opponent as stated will surely put the hero correctly on AK or even JJ and call with anything that can beat those. A bet of 2/3 the pot will not cause nearly so much suspicion of the hero holding a hand that missed the flop.

Re: AK limp reraise
 

If you are trying to get the weak hands to fold and lose as little as possible to the monsters it makes sense to think creatively. I think AK and JJ will usually be too confused to make a play at the pot if you bet the minimum on the flop, so if they make a raise that commits them but is not all in that is almost certainly a monster, and since you are behind anyway, you can fold having lost 5$ postflop. If they just call and you then bet 150-200, how can JJ or AK call or move in?
I'm just trying to think of alternatives to moving in or check folding.

Re: AK limp reraise
 

[ QUOTE ]
[If someone moves in here to a non-drawing board like this, then a good *thinking* opponent as stated will surely put the hero correctly on AK or even JJ and call with anything that can beat those.

[/ QUOTE ]i completely disagree with this. and i would GO ALLIN. hope he doesnt have JJ.

Re: AK limp reraise
 

This was a live private game in Toronto

FWIW, the villain in this hand won the CPT event I posted my bustout hand in the MTT forum (AJ vs. AK), and was in fact the player with AK.

Re: AK limp reraise
 

Doing something off the wall like betting the absolute minimum on the flop and half the pot on the turn would probably be scarier

I should bet $5 into a $290 pot?

Re: AK limp reraise
 

That's a great idea, but remember that you have to muck if he raises you to $10; there's no defense against an opponent that creative.

Re: AK limp reraise
 

does no one else think he has aces and puts villain on kings? why would he rereraise preflop when hero is already so pot committed and his only chance of getting out of the hand is if he actually has kings is if villain flops a set? i'd seriously consider the notion that villain himself has the aces. but yeah, what everyone else said - he's not folding here to any bet, unless it's JJ or AK, which are both unlikely. get out now.

Re: AK limp reraise
 

LMAO, him raising to $10 would be fantastic. If he has you crushed you can pick up a draw to the nuts for close to free, or a outdraw JJ. In reality JJ will probably think "what the [censored] kind of bet is that?" Then call and hope to hit a set and take it from there. AK will probably call not knowing what else to do, though it might raise planning to fold to a reraise.

And I agree it does look like villain has AA.

Also, pretty constructive post nate, keep up the good work.

Re: AK limp reraise
 

Hey, how about this. We both put up $100 or so and get some impartial qualified people to go through our 2+2 posts and decide whose have better content.

I haven't looked through yours, but I'm pretty confident.

--Nate

Re: AK limp reraise
 

Why does every post I make invariably degenerate into a flame war?

Re: AK limp reraise
 

I think that the 5$ bet is pretty interesting. But you can just make it if you are sure you can outplay this guy. He said something about AA vs. KK and he is loosing.
Now that should be a point were you can get him. Is he an actor? Does he think he can coffeehouse and make a play on you?
Now if you bet 5$ it is the same as checking. But maybe it is better than ckecking, because it seems weird and now he is able to fall out of his role as an actor, because it is a situation he doesn't expect. Look him closely. As Caro say, if he now does act other than he did before, he is bluffing.
Just make a play like this if you are sure you have better reading skills than him.

But I would bet half his remaining stack here. Have no reading skills. [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

Re: AK limp reraise
 

I can't see Villain folding here, and it smells like AA to me.

I'd just check fold here.

Re: AK limp reraise
 

According to Harrington's latest book you should come out with a continuation bet here of 40 - 70% of the pot. To me the call of the reraise looks scary. But figure the possible hands considering you have AK, AA (3ways) KK (3 ways) QQ (6 ways) JJ (6 ways) AK (9 ways) and even 10 10 (6 ways), 9 9 (6 ways) are a possibility for a guy who likes to isolate. Don't forget he has position and is likely to call with a few weaker hands. So with a continuation bet you might get hands like AK, JJ, 10 10 and 99 to lay down. If we have nailed down the playable hands then there is a good chance he would lay down 27 / 49 or 55%, which means a continuation bet here should show a positive EV. There is also a possibility that AA or even KK would have put you all in here pre-flop decreasing the likelihood of those holdings further.

Re: AK limp reraise
 

I consider this more a +EV situation than a flame war, but maybe that's just me. I am of course completely serious about the prop bet.

Hey, maybe I should offer to make the prop bet for one penny, or maybe I should offer to give him 100:99 odds. That'd be so creative he wouldn't know what to do, and he'd probably give me $100 immediately.

--Nate

Re: AK limp reraise
 

How about you just look over my previous posts in this forum and decide if I'm the moron you believe me to be. If somehow you are mistaken, you might consider constructing an argument as to why my suggestion is not a good one.

Re: AK limp reraise
 

[ QUOTE ]
I consider this more a +EV situation than a flame war, but maybe that's just me. I am of course completely serious about the prop bet.

Hey, maybe I should offer to make the prop bet for one penny, or maybe I should offer to give him 100:99 odds. That'd be so creative he wouldn't know what to do, and he'd probably give me $100 immediately.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nate, you're a genius. Can I be your friend please?

Re: AK limp reraise
 

Time prevents me from looking through your posts at the moment.

Constructed argument:

Betting 2% or so of the pot out of position against someone who called a preflop limp-reraise will not get adequate value if you're ahead, which you're probably not; it will not get him off a better hand; it will not prevent any rational opponent from executing any plan he has for the hand; and God kills a puppy every time someone does it.

--Nate

Re: AK limp reraise
 

Sorry, my records indicate you once bluffed a dry side pot.

Re: AK limp reraise
 

[ QUOTE ]
Reasonable game. Villain is very Lag but good and thinking. Will reraise to isolate a lot, plays a lot of hands.

I have $900, Villain has $550

5-5 NL hold em. I limp UTG with A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. another limper, and a good player makes it $15 to go. Villain on button makes it $30. SB calls 30 cold, and I decide to make a play for the pot right there and make it $130 to go. Villain thinks for a while and calls. He starts whining about how I must have Aces when he has Kings, etc. etc.

Villain calls.

2 to the flop ($315): Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

What's my plan?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think he has QQ and you're up [censored]'s creek.

Re: AK limp reraise
 

[ QUOTE ]
Time prevents me from looking through your posts at the moment.

Constructed argument:

Betting 2% or so of the pot out of position against someone who called a preflop limp-reraise will not get adequate value if you're ahead, which you're probably not; it will not get him off a better hand; it will not prevent any rational opponent from executing any plan he has for the hand; and God kills a puppy every time someone does it.

--Nate

[/ QUOTE ]

You aren't ahead here, so the only value to be had is in picking up a draw on the turn, or getting a better hand to fold. To pick up a draw on the turn you have to get to the turn. If AA calls the flop bet even a small percentage of the time, when it would otherwise have bet for value, betting the minimum is better than checking. The same goes for KK, though it probably checks behind anyway.

This is a such horrible flop for the villains range of hands, it will be hard for him to raise any bet you make if he doesn't have QQ. It will be somewhat easier for him to bet if you check, and you won't be able to call.

I would feel like an idiot if I was in villain's shoes with AA/KK and raised this stupid flop bet only to have the hero move in.

Re: AK limp reraise
 

[ QUOTE ]
move in here. i would hate to bet 250 and have to fold for the rest with those BD draws.

[/ QUOTE ]

thats a pretty shitty line.

there are no indications that villian is that loose. if you are going to move all-in here, what is best case scenerio: you are against a draw?

move all-in is probally one of the worst ways to play this hand.

Re: AK limp reraise
 

[ QUOTE ]
If villain is not an idiot you cannot be in the lead here. Worst case scenario he has QQ, maybe AA, best case, AK or JJ. Do whatever would put the fear of god into AA. If there is nothing you could do to make him fold AA, and I think this is probably the case given the stack sizes, give up or make him fold JJ/AK as cheaply as possible. You don't have to move in here to make him fold AK/JJ. Doing something off the wall like betting the absolute minimum on the flop and half the pot on the turn would probably be scarier.

[/ QUOTE ]

trying to make players fold AA is about the fastest way to go broke.

Re: AK limp reraise
 

[ QUOTE ]
I can't see Villain folding here, and it smells like AA to me.

I'd just check fold here.

[/ QUOTE ]

the only value in this hand is if Villian bluffs. Id bet 1/6 of the pot and fold to any raise. if he calls, i'd bet about 40% of the bet on the turn (assuming a rag falls).

Re: AK limp reraise
 

I agree, you aren't getting AA to fold here.

Re: AK limp reraise
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I can't see Villain folding here, and it smells like AA to me.

I'd just check fold here.

[/ QUOTE ]

the only value in this hand is if Villian bluffs. Id bet 1/6 of the pot and fold to any raise. if he calls, i'd bet about 40% of the bet on the turn (assuming a rag falls).

[/ QUOTE ]
ignore this post, i cant edit it and the words are all [censored] up.

Re: AK limp reraise
 

[ QUOTE ]

move in here. i would hate to bet 250 and have to fold for the rest with those BD draws.

[/ QUOTE ]

fsuplayer is being facetious here is he not? i took this line as a joke...

Re: AK limp reraise
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Time prevents me from looking through your posts at the moment.

Constructed argument:

Betting 2% or so of the pot out of position against someone who called a preflop limp-reraise will not get adequate value if you're ahead, which you're probably not; it will not get him off a better hand; it will not prevent any rational opponent from executing any plan he has for the hand; and God kills a puppy every time someone does it.

--Nate

[/ QUOTE ]

You aren't ahead here, so the only value to be had is in picking up a draw on the turn, or getting a better hand to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right. A better hand will not fold to a freaking $5 bet.

[ QUOTE ]
To pick up a draw on the turn you have to get to the turn. If AA calls the flop bet even a small percentage of the time, when it would otherwise have bet for value, betting the minimum is better than checking.

[/ QUOTE ]

$5 is also not going to prevent anyone from raising. And who's to say that $5 won't actually induce a raise?

[ QUOTE ]
The same goes for KK, though it probably checks behind anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess if you play with people dumb enough to be disoriented by a $5 bet, you play with people dumb enough to habitually check KK in that spot.

[ QUOTE ]
This is a such horrible flop for the villains range of hands, it will be hard for him to raise any bet you make if he doesn't have QQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, big pairs really hate rainbow undercard flops.

[ QUOTE ]
It will be somewhat easier for him to bet if you check, and you won't be able to call.

[/ QUOTE ]

It shouldn't be any harder for him to bet after you've thrown five bucks in the pot. And of course you can't call, but that's because you're probably destroyed in the first place.

[ QUOTE ]
I would feel like an idiot if I was in villain's shoes with AA/KK and raised this stupid flop bet only to have the hero move in.

[/ QUOTE ]

The above statement defies commentary.

--Nate

Re: AK limp reraise
 

[ QUOTE ]
Right. A better hand will not fold to a freaking $5 bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you joking? You think the bet is supposed to make the villain fold?

[ QUOTE ]
I guess if you play with people dumb enough to be disoriented by a $5 bet, you play with people dumb enough to habitually check KK in that spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

If an excellent player makes this bet and you have never seen him make a similar bet it will be confusing. I agree that if the villain thinks the hero is an idiot this bet will be completely useless.

As for your KK comment, if you would make a significant raise here with it you don't play well. What hands can KK beat that a person would limp reraise a solid raiser and reraiser with?

[ QUOTE ]

Yeah, big pairs really hate rainbow undercard flops.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know why I'm even arguing with you anymore, because you clearly don't know what you are talking about. If the villain's liberal hand range is AA KK QQ JJ AK, and puts hero on AA KK QQ AK, a queen high flop is terrible for AA because KK doesn't have to pay off the trap, QQ is now way ahead, AK isn't paying off, and AA is splitting. This is a terrible flop for KK because AA is still way ahead, and QQ is also now way ahead, and AK isn't paying off. It is a terrible flop for JJ because the only hand it could be ahead of is AK. It's a terrible flop for AK because there is no hand it can be ahead of.
[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

I would feel like an idiot if I was in villain's shoes with AA/KK and raised this stupid flop bet only to have the hero move in.



The above statement defies commentary.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

If you have KK and raise the stupid flop bet (to get AK to fold cuz that's what you can beat) and hero reraises all in you probably have to fold, having lost not only your raise, but a basically free shot at outdrawing AA and QQ.


As an aside, this hand illustrates why you might be better off limp reraising with 66 and 78s rather than AK.

Re: AK limp reraise
 

People are saying to ignore what he said and block it out.

[ QUOTE ]
He starts whining about how I must have Aces when he has Kings, etc. etc.


[/ QUOTE ]

So he is the one who has aces, and he wants you to have kings? Check-Fold the flop.

This would ussually be a push for me though most of the time. Then again, I don't limp reraise AKs normally, id rather do it with a wierd hand instead.