QQ heads up vs limp raiser
 

I have a lot of trouble with hands that get heads up. Am I ahead, am I behind? I don't know.

Villain was 66/4/.8 over 53 hands.

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, MP1 calls.

<font color="purple">Villain's aggression numbers don't seem very high, so I'm a little concerned about the limp-raise. But I'm not ready to give him credit for AA or KK yet (I've seen the limp-raise a lot lately, with non-premium hands). </font>

Flop: (9.50 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, Hero calls.

<font color="purple">Should I have raised here? I figured him for AA, KK, JJ (which kill me), or a smaller pocket pair, or maybe AK, AQ. I had just read a thread about check/calling when you're either way ahead or way behind, and was applying that here, but looking back, I'm not sure if this was the correct play. I think I should raise if there's a good chance he's playing overcards, or a flush draw. If he reraises me, then I can slow down. So what do you think? Is just calling ok here? Or should I have raised?</font>

Turn: (5.75 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, Hero calls.

<font color="purple">Now I'm in trouble if does have AK. But I'm not ready to give it up because there's a chance he has a smaller pair. Now I think it's correct to go into call down mode. If he's ahead, I lose less. If I'm ahead, I let him continue to bluff. Correct? Or do you fold here? </font>

River: (7.75 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, Hero calls.

<font color="purple">If he had checked, should I bet this? </font>

Final Pot: 9.75 BB

Re: QQ heads up vs limp raiser
 

I raise the flop, if he 3-bets I call.
When the turn comes K, i go into calldown mode. (might be a leak by me though.)

Re: QQ heads up vs limp raiser
 

I raise the flop and cap it if possible.
What flop were you hoping for? I like this one

I raise the turn also.
Hard for me to explain why. Good chance I am wrong but I would do it. This guy can't be trusted if he needs to improve I want to make it expensive for him. If he reraises I still call the cap bet.

I call the river bet.

When I play these types of players I wait for a good hand and play it very aggressively. Very likely to much so.

Re: QQ heads up vs limp raiser
 

I would call down and check behind on any street should he check to me.

Just to clarify: This pot is HU and we really can't afford to get into a pissing match with a better hand here. We do need to call him down here because a) our hand might be good and b) we really want to see what he is limp-reraising with. This is not a time where we want to raise ourself out of a pot. We want to goto showdown to see what he has.

Brad

Re: QQ heads up vs limp raiser
 

If he'll play this way preflop with AA, KK, JJ, AK, or AQs, then there's 17 ways for you to be ahead and 18 ways for him to be ahead on this flop. Add in the 1 or 2 percent of the time you both have QQ and you are ahead or tied 50% of the time on this flop. Raising and calling are close, but my first instinct would probably be to raise. But calling down is fine too.

Re: QQ heads up vs limp raiser
 

I wholeheartedly agree with calling down.

If this player is sane, there's a very small chance you're going to win this pot, but due to the preflop action, the pot is large enough to make the call down worth it.

Re: QQ heads up vs limp raiser
 

[ QUOTE ]
This pot is HU and we really can't afford to get into a pissing match with a better hand here. We do need to call him down here because a) our hand might be good and b) we really want to see what he is limp-reraising with. This is not a time where we want to raise ourself out of a pot. We want to goto showdown to see what he has.


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I don't care what he is limp raising with.
I don't want to see him beat me on the turn or river unless I have charged him a high price for it. If I check/call and get beat I tilt. If I bet/raise and get beat I feel better hard to explain but I lose more but feel better about it. If he reraises me I am prepared to take the pissing match all the way to the showdown.

I see why I am wrong. I don't think I can stop. I get into raising wars often vs these types of players. What can I say trying to be honest here.

Re: QQ heads up vs limp raiser
 

I've been seeing this limp-reraise thing more frequently of late; about 6 times in the last couple of weeks. So far, everytime the player has turned over pocket aces. I think most players will only be doing this with AA, AKs or KK (in that order).

I think you're beat preflop, but the King seals it for me. I do want to see his cards though.


Fishlips

Results
 

Thanks for the responses!

Results:
MP1 has 8d 8c (one pair, eights).
Hero has Qc Qs (one pair, queens).
Outcome: Hero wins 9.75 BB.

Re: QQ heads up vs limp raiser
 

You do not for sure put him on AA or KK. Then raise the flop. You do not want to give him the turncard cheep Call if he 3-bet. If he 3-bet then I would call down on turn. Why? If he have a smaller pair or a J then I do not want him to fold on then turn anyway if he pay me 1 BB on both turn and river. Sure I want to punish him more but I wonta becaus he might have set or AA. It is not worth it.

Well, when the K come at turn then I think I call down anyway if he bet even if he only 2-bet flop. If he hit turn then BAD. If not then he pay me anyway by betting himself...

Re: QQ heads up vs limp raiser
 

You played that too passively. By just calling every street you get no info from him. Why didn't you raise the flop? That was the biggest mistake I think. If he limp raised with AA or (unlikely) KK, JJ he would probably try to check-raise you at the flop and definetely at the turn after you called his bet at the flop. You need to be less passive HU especially with a strong hand.

Re: QQ heads up vs limp raiser
 

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he would probably try to check-raise you at the flop and definetely at the turn

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not to be an ass why would he definately check the turn with a good PP or a set?

I think check call line is fine considering his numbers and the action PF.

Re: QQ heads up vs limp raiser
 

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I would call down and check behind on any street should he check to me.

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Check behind Brad? I agree check call but checking behind makes me feel funny inside [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img] Could you enlighten me as to why?

Re: QQ heads up vs limp raiser
 

I think check/calling is the best play here. If he is way ahead we save money, if he is way behind, we want him to keep betting and don't want him to fold to a raise.

Re: QQ heads up vs limp raiser
 

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he would probably try to check-raise you at the flop and definetely at the turn

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not to be an ass why would he definately check the turn with a good PP or a set?

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To earn an additional BB maybe? You can delete my "definetely" though.

Re: QQ heads up vs limp raiser
 

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I think check/calling is the best play here. If he is way ahead we save money, if he is way behind, we want him to keep betting and don't want him to fold to a raise.

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Where can you check here? I'm confused. Anyway, if you play so passively your big pairs then you can never make enough money out of them.

Re: QQ heads up vs limp raiser
 

I played this one so passively because the limp-reraise had me fearing AA or KK (especially since his preflop aggression numbers weren't very high). But I'm not at all certain of it so I can't lay down QQ. I thought - at the time - that check calling was the way to go: if I'm behind I lose less, but if I'm ahead I win more (by letting him continue to bluff). What hand could he have that I beat, that he would pay me off with? Now I'm thinking that I should've raised the flop, in case he was drawing to AK. But should I fold to a raise when the K hits the turn? I don't think so. It's heads up, I'm taking this to showdown.

Re: QQ heads up vs limp raiser
 

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I would call down and check behind on any street should he check to me.

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Check behind Brad? I agree check call but checking behind makes me feel funny inside [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img] Could you enlighten me as to why?

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Okay we know a few things about this hand.

1) We may or may not have the best hand on the flop. So let's say that there is a 25% chance of him having aces or kings. If we raise the flop and then he 3-bets, there is now a 75% chance of him having AA/KK. So the only hands that he will be willing to get into a pissing match with have us destroyed. Therefore it is -EV to goto war here. However since we will have the best hand here often, it puts money into our pocket when we call down.

2) After he checks to us, one of 3 things will happen. If he check/raises we just lose more money if we decide to pay off. If we fold to the check/raise we don't get to see what he has. If he check/folds, we don't get to see what he has either. He knows that we have a good hand but we know very little about his. If we see that he has something like T9 in this spot, we can make much better decisions against him in the future. The best thing that we can hope for is a check/call but it is pretty strange for someone to limp-reraise preflop and then get passive after the flop. So by either checking or calling we:

a) encourage him to bluff if that he what he is doing
b) lose less if he has us beat
c) get to a showdown where we gain lots of information about his hand

You also have to understand that when we check behind, we are not giving him a free card. Since we don't know if we have the best hand or not, we have less corncerns about giving free cards (he could be checking intending to trap us with a monster hand). Also consider that he might be drawing stone cold dead after the turn and we want him to toss in those desperation bluff attempts.

Brad

Re: Results
 

I saw the post too late not to see the results, so take it for what it's worth . . .

With J high on the flop against your overpair, I'd raise the flop. Dare him to call. Depending on his response, play accordingly. I, too, have seen really loose limp/reraises.

Re: QQ heads up vs limp raiser
 

I play it exactly the same way you did, and think it's easily the best line. Nice hand.

Re: QQ heads up vs limp raiser
 

I have seen people LRR with low pocket pairs frequently enough. I think they mistakenly put you on AK, then remember that a low pocket pair is a favorite over AK.

Capping is questionable. No one will fold, and I don't think you are ahead 50% of the time after the LRR.

After you capped, your opponent still bet into you. It is either a bluff or a monster. If you raise and are 3-bet, will you have learned enough information to fold? I don't think so. It's ok to catch the bluffs by calling down.

When the king hits on the turn, if your opponent doesn't bet, you can bet for value, and fold to a check-raise.