Strategies against players who don\'t give a damn.
 

Ran headlong into a very LGP couple nights ago who MO was to cap about 30% of the pf hands he was in, posted live straddles every opportunity, and only folded when he was incredibly behind, but never to aggression per se. These types have put a serious dent in my bankroll lately and have considered moving up to a higher limit where the play is more sane. What are your opinions?

Re: Strategies against players who don\'t give a damn.
 

my opinion is that if you are struggling to beat an obviously very poor opponent, you would be worse off against better opposition.

no offence meant by this, but that attitude is a very irrational one (although also very common).

your variance in a game with a player that you describe may be higher, but so will your win rate over time, once you adapt to his play.

Re: Strategies against players who don\'t give a damn.
 

But how? Have tried tightening up, loosening up, with no real success. I'm get good draws, making them pay heavily to stick around, make them only to get sucked out ie, got my king high straight (flopped) beat by one these types who paired the board 3 and showed down his 93o for a boat!! I know this sounds like the typical bad beat whine but what can you do? They don't respect raises and raising for value can only go so far when you obviously have the nuts and they still hang around. I'm just out of answers.

Re: Strategies against players who don\'t give a damn.
 

Good advice. I started on the $0.01/$0.02 NL tables on Poker Stars. Those tables are pretty much the same as the play money tables, but I learned how to adjust my play accordingly until I was coming out ahead every time I sat down. Then I moved up a level and adjusted again. Moved up and adjusted.

Now I'm doing well on the $50 buy ins and don't plan on going anywhere until I satisfactorily feel that I am dominating this level. When I do, I'll move up and adjust.

I don't want to be a star, I just want to make money. Imagine a game of baseball and you're trying to make the major leagues. You come upon a pitcher who keeps throwing them by you leaving you to swing at air. He throws sliders and fastballs and knuckleballs, changing them up so often you're totally confused. You have two choices, throw your hands in the air and give up, or if you're serious about getting better then you have only once choice... practice until dark every night.

Finding another pitcher isn't the answer; learning how to hit his crazy pitches is. That's the only way to get better.

Good luck

Re: Strategies against players who don\'t give a damn.
 

[ QUOTE ]
But how? Have tried tightening up, loosening up, with no real success. I'm get good draws, making them pay heavily to stick around, make them only to get sucked out ie, got my king high straight (flopped) beat by one these types who paired the board 3 and showed down his 93o for a boat!! I know this sounds like the typical bad beat whine but what can you do? They don't respect raises and raising for value can only go so far when you obviously have the nuts and they still hang around. I'm just out of answers.

[/ QUOTE ]
lOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong rUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUN

Re: Strategies against players who don\'t give a damn.
 

Two factors are killing you.

The first one you nailed. Pots are won by forcing the other person off the pot and having better cards. If you can't force them off, you'll lose more hands. The bright side is that if you play the odds and play the cards you'll win more over all.

The next factor is that it's easy against this kind of foe to delude yourself into thinking he never has any good cards. You'll see TPTK and think to yourself that it has to be good because odds are he's not holding crap. You'll put a bunch of money into the pot and wind up paying him off. You'll dwell to much on the bad beats and it'll put you on tilt.

The sad fact is the only way to beat this guy is to wait and play good cards. When the odds are on your side, play it and don't get wrapped up in the bad beats you will take. Over the course of the evening your stack will grow and his will dwindle. Collecting chips is the best revenge.

Position is key against these players. Don't get agressive against him untill the end of the hand. He'll be in no matter what. Let him bet into you and only stay in when you have the nuts.

Re: Strategies against players who don\'t give a damn.
 

Alright, since you have such a problem with having the other player sticking around, heres what you do...

Next time you have AA, put it face up, and convince him to play with you.

I hope you enjoy the antes and blinds.

Re: Strategies against players who don\'t give a damn.
 

Thanks for the advice. So you're 2nd point suggests avoiding some otherwise profitable situations altogether because this style is so difficult, if not impossible to read? Seems like I'll miss out on some otherwise profitable situations b/c one one my weapons, betting/raising, is no longer effective.

Re: Strategies against players who don\'t give a damn.
 

Position is key against these players. Don't get agressive against him untill the end of the hand. He'll be in no matter what. Let him bet into you and only stay in when you have the nuts.

This suggestion is what I needed for a tournement player I just encountered. He is all excited about returning to our Tournaments because they are 'Easy Money'! Looking forward to putting this theory in place to show him how tough easy money can be!

Good Luck All!

Re: Strategies against players who don\'t give a damn.
 

You have the nut straight and he catches a lucky boat. In the long run, you want him chasing like that, odds are in your favor.

Believe me, I completely understand how frustrating it can be against someone like this. It just seems they make their crazy hands and suck out on you. But, these other guys are right, you will beat someone like this in the long run. In the short run, they can easily tilt you.

Just had one of those douchebags win my 7-card stud event the other day. The betting structure was pretty agressivee, so his style of betting with nothing forced others out of pots, allowing him to take down some nice chips early on.

One crazy hand he had a 5 on board with an 8/4 in the hole (nothing suited). Another player who was shorter stacked raised it up (had a Q showing and a Q in the hole). The crazy stated he didn't have anything, but called anyway. He pairs his 5 but the other guy pairs his Q.

The other guy winds up getting all his money in with trip Queens vs. a pair of 5's and a very unlikely straight draw. The next card gives the crazy his third 5, and the next card after that gives him quad 5's. Unbelievable. Now he thinks he's gods gift to poker because of this unreal luck that he had. But that will keep him coming back and putting his money in.

This same kid thinks he can get a 3% edge in roulette by betting on 10 numbers each time and winning 1 in 4 times (35-1 payout for hitting once vs. putting 40-1 money in)

He just doesn't have a clue, he's so moronic I want to slit my wrists. But he'll pay you off when you do have a hand. He just can't help but to bet and bet and bet.

they always assume anyone betting into them is bluffing, they always have to see the flop (i.e. they'll call an all-in pre-flop with something like 9/2 suited) and if they catch a pair, any pair (board could be K/Q/6 and they have bottom pair) they just won't fold (their thinking is "well, I might hit trips!")

Re: Strategies against players who don\'t give a damn.
 

The odds of your flopped king-high straight getting beaten by a 93o are pretty ridiculous - assuming the 9 you used was on the board (you said you're playing tight), he's got a pair of 9s, something like a hundred to one against improving to a boat or better, maybe a little more to improve to a flush.

If he's staying in when the pot isn't paying him 100:1, let him. All you can really do is ride out the roller coaster - because the pots are all so big, a bad beat is expensive. But the wins are more frequent and just as big.

Don't count the pots you win. Count the chips.

Re: Strategies against players who don\'t give a damn.
 

Exactly!

Here's the flip side of the equation, though. You'll be giving up more pots and losing the effectivness of raising but that's offset by the fact that you'll make more with better cards since he'll be pumping money into the pot no matter what he has.

Example. You hit a flush. Now against a "normal" player you would have to bet small to goad the other player into the pot. He'll see the flush possible and not pay you. Your maniac, on the other hand, doesn't care about that. You can jump up and scream at him "I have the flush you moron!" and he'll still bet into you with nothing.

Had a guy like that last night. I could see the look in his eyes when he would do a double take at the board as I was raking in my chips.

Re: Strategies against players who don\'t give a damn.
 

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Position is key against these players. Don't get agressive against him untill the end of the hand. He'll be in no matter what. Let him bet into you and only stay in when you have the nuts.

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That's horrible advice. We are talking about limit. You can't make up for missed value bets by showing aggression on the river, particularly if you wait for the rare times you have a very strong hand on the river. You don't need anything close to the nuts to be ahead of a nearly random hand. You need to press your advantage, not throw it away.

It's very easy to win against calling stations. Bet for value. Don't bluff. Don't slow-play. Position is not very important against a calling station.

It can be frustrating to play against someone who plays badly this way or any other way, but who gets hit by the deck. However, you reach the long run much more rapidly against really bad opponents than against good ones. Against decent but beatable opponents, you can have downswings lasting weeks. Against really bad players, you shouldn't have many downswings lasting more than a few hours.

Welcome to the forums.

Re: Strategies against players who don\'t give a damn.
 

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...and raising for value can only go so far when you obviously have the nuts and they still hang around.

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You do realize how ridiculous this sounds, don't you?

Re: Strategies against players who don\'t give a damn.
 

I implied that the maniac knew I held the best hand at that point (due to my aggression and his reaction) but stuck around with his longshot anyways.

Re: Strategies against players who don\'t give a damn.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Position is key against these players. Don't get agressive against him untill the end of the hand. He'll be in no matter what. Let him bet into you and only stay in when you have the nuts.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's horrible advice. We are talking about limit. You can't make up for missed value bets by showing aggression on the river, particularly if you wait for the rare times you have a very strong hand on the river. You don't need anything close to the nuts to be ahead of a nearly random hand. You need to press your advantage, not throw it away.

It's very easy to win against calling stations. Bet for value. Don't bluff. Don't slow-play. Position is not very important against a calling station.


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That's great advice too....The problem is that this guy would call with any suited cards or Ax. Granted he did get VERY lucky when I pushed the pot and he outdrew me, it just seems that you have to have the nuts against this guy so that you can survive the early rounds and then push him out when you get a decent chip stack to be able to afford the outdraws he makes against you.
I will try a variation of both recommondations and let you know how I make out this week

Re: Strategies against players who don\'t give a damn.
 

[ QUOTE ]
it just seems that you have to have the nuts against this guy so that you can survive the early rounds and then push him out when you get a decent chip stack to be able to afford the outdraws he makes against you.
I will try a variation of both recommondations and let you know how I make out this week

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I may not understand you right but if I do, I disagree. this sounds to me like a cse that calls for a level head and just straight ahead, ABC poker. Be aggressive when you have a good hand or favorable odds on a draw, back off when you don't, no trickiness required, no need to win early or to "push him off". Be very nice to the guy, when he sucks out tell him "good move, you sure got me there." All you want is an adequate bankroll and enough games agaisnt the guy for the long run to come around. I love this type of opponent.

Re: Strategies against players who don\'t give a damn.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Position is key against these players. Don't get agressive against him untill the end of the hand. He'll be in no matter what. Let him bet into you and only stay in when you have the nuts.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's horrible advice. We are talking about limit. You can't make up for missed value bets by showing aggression on the river, particularly if you wait for the rare times you have a very strong hand on the river. You don't need anything close to the nuts to be ahead of a nearly random hand. You need to press your advantage, not throw it away.

It's very easy to win against calling stations. Bet for value. Don't bluff. Don't slow-play. Position is not very important against a calling station.


[/ QUOTE ]

That's great advice too....The problem is that this guy would call with any suited cards or Ax. Granted he did get VERY lucky when I pushed the pot and he outdrew me, it just seems that you have to have the nuts against this guy so that you can survive the early rounds and then push him out when you get a decent chip stack to be able to afford the outdraws he makes against you.
I will try a variation of both recommondations and let you know how I make out this week

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<font color="red"> You are talking about different situations... One is a limit ring game, and the other is a NL tournament.</font>

In a limit game beating the calling station is easy because if they get lucky then you just buy in for more money and keep playing. In a tournament it becomes much more complicated in so far as you don't want to lose the tournament to a guy drawing out on you. I don't think you need to stop being aggressive when you flop THE NUTS because redraws exist, but you certainly don't value bet as aggressively against a calling station when you have middle pair (at least early in the tournament)... Sklansky says something to the effect that if you are one of the better players it is right to give up small edges in a tournament to wait for larger ones to take advantage of! Although he also says that if you aren't one of the best players it is often correct to play those small edges aggessively.

K_squared

VALUE BET
 

against a player like this... value bet, value bet, value bet. If you're statistically ahead of their crap, RAISE.

watch your draws and count your hidden outs. these types of players lead to enormous pots. your "smart" fold might be costing you a fortune once you figure in your crap draws (that backdoor flush draw and inside straight draw look pretty good when it's 20 small bets going into the flop).

be aggressive. sure you won't knock the maniac out, but you'll likely knock out a few of the wimpier weak-sauce players who are trying to be smart.

understand your maniac: is he a maniac pre-flop and then play reasonably post-flop? is he utterly random? stop cursing at his pre-flop play, and figure out what he's doing later in the hand.

don't tilt. a player like this creates huge variance, and often puts the whole table on tilt. be aware that this might happen, and watch for changes in your opponents games. exploit them.

stop thinking that playing better players will fix your game. if you can't beat this guy, then your game has issues. fix them and beat him.

Re: Strategies against players who don\'t give a damn.
 

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In a limit game beating the calling station is easy because if they get lucky then you just buy in for more money and keep playing.


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No, it is easy because you often get to put your money in with a substantial advantage.

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In a tournament it becomes much more complicated in so far as you don't want to lose the tournament to a guy drawing out on you.


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How do you want to lose the tournament?

You lose most tournaments you play. So does everyone else. A calling station will usually get knocked out quickly. It is easier to get their chips than to blind down while the good players get the calling station's chips, then try to win from the good players.

[ QUOTE ]
Sklansky says something to the effect that if you are one of the better players it is right to give up small edges in a tournament to wait for larger ones to take advantage of! Although he also says that if you aren't one of the best players it is often correct to play those small edges aggessively.

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Although great players can afford to pass up small advantages, that is not what makes them great, and no one can afford to give up large advantages. When you have a real hand against a calling station, your advantage is large.

Don't try to bluff or semi-bluff a calling station, or you will throw away your advantage just as if you fail to bet your decent hands.

Here\'s what I did...
 

John, I totally sympathize with you. I just went through exactly the same thing online. Moving from the high-limit play money tables on Poker Stars (where contrary to popular opinion the players are generally rational) to the lowest-limit real money tables, I was getting absolutely murdered.

The problem was that I couldn't get those douches off a hand, even if they were holding bottom pair with a weak kicker. Then they'd hit trips or two pair on the river and gloat about their bad play. I feel you, man.

Here's what I did:

First, I tightened up A LOT. K10s in early position? Fold. A8o on the button? Fold. Fold. Fold.

This is hard to do, because if you're a good player, you're used to raising pre-flop to narrow the field and then outplaying anyone who stays to see the flop. I know, dude, it's hard, but tighten up and FOLD.

So at this point I'm playing only premium hands, always taking into account position. I'd fold even A9s under the gun, but I'd play it on the button.

The next thing I did was pull back on the size of my bets. This, too, seems counterintuitive for a good player who is used to taking pots with selective aggression. But if you're up against opponents who absolutely will not fold, one purpose of betting big (inducing the fold of weak hands) has disappeared. Against these players the ONLY thing your bets accomplish is building the pot when you expect to win. That's it.

The last thing I did was try to stay calm. Remind yourself that even when you're losing <font color="blue">you are making better decisions than your opponents.</font> Keep your head in the game, don't go on tilt even when a bad beat comes, DON'T loosen up your starting hands no matter how many rags you see win, and take a quick break now and then if you need to. Sit out two hands and go get another beer, have a cigarette, smoke some weed. Call your girlfriend on your cellphone. Whatever it takes, just don't tilt.

This is what worked for me. Hang in there. You can beat that fool.


Crooked