Big Jump - From Party $100NL to $1000NL??
 

Need some advice here. I've been beating the Party NL100 game for about $35/100 for over 30K hands. I want to move up, but it seems like the 200/400/600 games have much lower average pots than I'm used to seeing (appx 25% of buyin). The NL1000 game is the only one that's running pot averages at 50% of buyin. I have two questions:

1. Is the NL1000 game significantly harder than the NL100 game?

2. Is a 30K bankroll enough to play the NL1000 gamne?

Thanks in advance for the help.

Re: Big Jump - From Party $100NL to $1000NL??
 

Moving up directly to 1000NL would be a huge mistake.

There are some idiots there but it's a much different game. No longer are you pushing your TPTK against some fool with K7o.

30k is a big enough bankroll for a proven winning player at that level but to skip directly to 100NL is like suicide.

Yes, you might make it and win a few buy-ins - but unless you're ready for the pyschological impact of losing 2-3k instantly.. I'd stick to the 200 NL.

Blackjack

Re: Big Jump - From Party $100NL to $1000NL??
 

is the game significantly tougher?
what do you think? YES.
is a 30k BR ok?
i think so... but its close.

Re: Big Jump - From Party $100NL to $1000NL??
 

I haven't posted much lately, and not at all on this, so here goes.

The party games are great, obviously. I'm playing more there now than prima or pokerroom

The 600 may be more profitable for me than the 1000. I'm doing well in each, but often, I'm one of the best 1 or 2 players at the 600, this is rarely the case in the 1000.

The second tier of superstar NL players (not prahlad, other known pros, etc.) are in the 1000. They are tricky, they trap, they will rape you will slick when they catch you on AQ. They extract the maximum out of tptk and other marginal hands.

The "huge" pot averages are often reflective of this fact. If you want to move up, play the 400 or the 600. There are solid, straigtforward players and donks; rarely will you run into 3 superstars at the same table.

At the 1000, you'll see what appears to be a donk (vpip 40, pfr 20 over say 500 hands) who's making the fish comfortable and lulling the weak tight pokertrackes worshippers to sleep.

good luck

Re: Big Jump - From Party $100NL to $1000NL??
 

And if you do play the 1000, watch out for the aforementionded "maniacs" from places like Stockholm, Linkoping, Malmo, or Not Available.

Re: Big Jump - From Party $100NL to $1000NL??
 

dont move up. the players there are super aggressive and even the LAGish ones are still pretty good postflop.

not too many idiots playing these games after last week unfortunately.

play the games in between for a while to get used to that.

whats the rush? the av'g pot on the prima 50-100NL game looks great at times, but I aint rushing in.

btw $30k is plenty for a good player, but since you dont have much experiance there, who knows what a good BR may be?

I keep at least $25k on there, but its def. possible to win/lose $5k in two hours. would you be able to handle that mentally?

I was playing the 100NL games up til august and i would have thrown up if i lost 1500 on a hand.

Re: Big Jump - From Party $100NL to $1000NL??
 

You probably already know this, but Party considers uncalled bets to be part of the pot for the purpose of determining the average pot size. So sometimes tables will appear to have very big pots but really it's a lot of aggressive play which results in many large uncalled bets. As you move up the players get more aggressive so this will definitely impact the lobby stats somewhat. Also, some guy moving all-in for $5000 when his opponent only has $200 left will completely screw up the average pot size for that table since that extra $4800 is still counted as part of the pot. So I guess what I'm saying is, don't just look at the table stats and try to make judgements. You need to actually open up a few tables and see how the money is going into the pot -- are there people raising UTG with KJo and going to showdown with top pair? Or is there a lot of action coming from late-position players who are selectively applying pressure?

All that said though, there are many people playing in the 1000s that have flaws in their game at very fundamental levels. For example, I've seen one player who is supposedly winning quite a bit of money limp UTG+1 with Q2s. I've seen people limp UTG with A9s, minraise from MP with ace-rag, and there's even the occasional player that will play damn near every single hand. And that only covers the preflop leaks. You don't need to do anything special to win -- just identify the mistakes that people are making and take advantage.

Re: Big Jump - From Party $100NL to $1000NL??
 

The biggest mistakes in this game are from postflop play - these preflop mistakes aren't all that bad really (don't even have to be "mistakes") if they play well postflop.

Re: Big Jump - From Party $100NL to $1000NL??
 

A great way to prepare yourself for the mental and emotional swings you'll have to endure at that level is to actually live through the agony of losing 5K in two minutes. Take out five thousand from your account right now and send it to my home, look at your account again, and realize that I'm not giving it back... I promise I'll have my girl scream your name after I buy her expensive jewelry with your money. (that's only fair, really...)

Okay, seriously, you're clearly doing well with the game you're at, you've been saving your money, promote yourself. You've earned it. You probably could have made this bump 15 grand ago. The issue is that with every little hop you take toward the higher limits, you're against opponents that aren't going to call your raise every time, or get suckered in with an eight high flush to the nuts(well, usually). It's not that you're not better than the people there, even... it's understanding that sometimes moving up a level will lower your daily take. You might cream the 200 and level off at the 400. When this happens, go back to the 200 where you're making the most money for your time, improve your game to the point where you can cream the 400, and so on. Find your holes, get used to both using AND avoiding more complicated plays. Learn what new moves are used at these levels so that you can be prepared for their big brothers when you move up again.
-And I'll be expecting that check by the end of the week. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
Keep playing player!
Ez-out

Re: Big Jump - From Party $100NL to $1000NL??
 

I don't know what the heck the others are saying, but that Party 5/10 NL game is the best of all sites I've seen (6 max that is, I don't know about the full handed ring game).

The only anomaly with that 5/10 NL game is that there tends to be more all-ins which means a higher variance in general.

Lawrence

Re: Big Jump - From Party $100NL to $1000NL??
 

[ QUOTE ]
1. Is the NL1000 game significantly harder than the NL100 game?

2. Is a 30K bankroll enough to play the NL1000 gamne?


[/ QUOTE ]

1. Yes. The problem isn't that the game is less profitable. The problem is that the fish are going to be unlike the fish in the NL100. So the things that used to work, will no longer work. In fact, I would expect that at that level the play of the fish is probably tailored to beating those who are used to the NL100 game.

2. I would expect not. The rule of thumb is that a 5/10 NL game is close to a 50/100 limit game. At 50/100, 30K is 300 big bets, but at that level, even regular pros probably want 50K, if not 100K. Since you aren't a regular yet, it'll take you a while to become aclimated to the new game conditions, thus increasing your bankroll requirements.

- Andrew

www.pokerstove.com

Re: Big Jump - From Party $100NL to $1000NL??
 

[ QUOTE ]
Take out five thousand from your account right now and send it to my home, look at your account again, and realize that I'm not giving it back... I promise I'll have my girl scream your name after I buy her expensive jewelry with your money.

[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]
Yeah bitch.

Re: Big Jump - From Party $100NL to $1000NL??
 

Yes, Yes for a winning player.

I've played short periods in all of these games. Move up to the 200 and 400 and 600. They are great games and you should be happy to have them as a stepping stone. They are tougher than the 100, but not much. But the jump in aggression and competition from the 100 to the 1000 is huge. The 1000s are not the toughest games around, but there are a number of players who will be much tougher than anything seen in the 100.

This progression on party is a godsend for anyone wanting to learn NL. 25->50->100->200->400->600->1000 is pretty much the easiest route to getting good at decent stakes NL that has ever existed in poker.

Re: Big Jump - From Party $100NL to $1000NL??
 

Pre-flop mistakes are pretty much nullified by good post-flop play. Especially when you are talking about limping with a decent stack behind.

Re: Big Jump - From Party $100NL to $1000NL??
 

you been moving up in these games yet?


100BB=g00t

Re: Big Jump - From Party $100NL to $1000NL??
 

[ QUOTE ]
you been moving up in these games yet?


100BB=g00t

[/ QUOTE ]


I have dabbled in the 400's and 600's but not long enough for any significant results.

I played the 1000's briefly (an hour) but bought in for 500 a pop. I need more bankroll for that game- ended up down about 650 (nothing for that game) then felt like I was putting too much bankroll at risk and bailed out.

Still, the 1000's seem to have more loose action than the games in between 100 and 1000 and I'd like to get in on it.

The biggest game in the house often gets the biggest gamblers and that's probably why the pot averages in the 1000s are relatively good compared to the medium sized games. I hope to playing them within 6 months.

Re: Big Jump - From Party $100NL to $1000NL??
 

[img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

HIJACK for Bragging Purposes
 

Hi soah,

[ QUOTE ]
there are many people playing in the 1000s that have flaws in their game at very fundamental levels. For example...

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
limp UTG+1 with Q2s.

[/ QUOTE ] --Check
[ QUOTE ]
limp UTG with A9s, minraise from MP with ace-rag, and there's even the occasional player that will play damn near every single hand.

[/ QUOTE ] -- Check, check, check.

I think you're a little inflexible in your NL thinking. From what I've observed online and in live play, the players who play this way, and play well post-flop, win the most, albeit with pretty high variance. I am talking about the shorthanded games, which is all I play on Party. I'm probably among the winningest handful of players in this game over the short time they've been available, and yet I get called a fish at nearly every table I play. People are constantly treating me like I'm a tilting maniac, though I seem to stack them again and again. What could be sweeter? I don't own Pokertracker, but I'm guessing my profile is something like 5million/7kajillion. In a recent post, you ridiculed the notion that K4s could be playable UTG. In a 6-Max game, I play it upwards of 80% of the time; I need a very good reason to fold it (like I've raised 6 pots in a row, and I'm certain they're gonna make it expensive if they have anything). In a 10-handed game, I guarantee you I'd play it about 25% or more; depends on how much raising is going on, and to how large a % of our stacks.

I respect your TAG approach, soah, and I respect the knowledge you display in your posts. But you cheat yourself if you fail to consider the validity of different approaches.

Back on task.
 

Hi AgileMike,

Question #1: Much tougher, IMO, though you are surely ready to move up to a bigger game with those stats. I assure you that the games play nothing alike, despite the similar pot avgs. Also, isn't the 100NL 50XBB buy-in game? 100X plays substantially different (I'm sure you know this), so you might consider buying in short if you move up. I'd try the 400 first if I were you.

Question #2: Depends how well you play, and what style you play, but I'd tend to say no. However, there's nothing wrong with taking a shot with 5 or 10K, and dropping down if it goes bad. You might win a lot of money before you have a chance to blink. But I still think most of us (me included for sure) should take baby steps when moving up.

Re: Big Jump - From Party $100NL to $1000NL??
 

[ QUOTE ]
You probably already know this, but Party considers uncalled bets to be part of the pot for the purpose of determining the average pot size. So sometimes tables will appear to have very big pots but really it's a lot of aggressive play which results in many large uncalled bets. As you move up the players get more aggressive so this will definitely impact the lobby stats somewhat. Also, some guy moving all-in for $5000 when his opponent only has $200 left will completely screw up the average pot size for that table since that extra $4800 is still counted as part of the pot. So I guess what I'm saying is, don't just look at the table stats and try to make judgements. You need to actually open up a few tables and see how the money is going into the pot -- are there people raising UTG with KJo and going to showdown with top pair? Or is there a lot of action coming from late-position players who are selectively applying pressure?

All that said though, there are many people playing in the 1000s that have flaws in their game at very fundamental levels. For example, I've seen one player who is supposedly winning quite a bit of money limp UTG+1 with Q2s. I've seen people limp UTG with A9s, minraise from MP with ace-rag, and there's even the occasional player that will play damn near every single hand. And that only covers the preflop leaks. You don't need to do anything special to win -- just identify the mistakes that people are making and take advantage.

[/ QUOTE ]

limping utg w/A9s isnt a mistake if a few people have already doubled up and the satkes are big. raising is better though, but ill limp in some situations for specific reasons.

Re: Big Jump - From Party $100NL to $1000NL??
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You probably already know this, but Party considers uncalled bets to be part of the pot for the purpose of determining the average pot size. So sometimes tables will appear to have very big pots but really it's a lot of aggressive play which results in many large uncalled bets. As you move up the players get more aggressive so this will definitely impact the lobby stats somewhat. Also, some guy moving all-in for $5000 when his opponent only has $200 left will completely screw up the average pot size for that table since that extra $4800 is still counted as part of the pot. So I guess what I'm saying is, don't just look at the table stats and try to make judgements. You need to actually open up a few tables and see how the money is going into the pot -- are there people raising UTG with KJo and going to showdown with top pair? Or is there a lot of action coming from late-position players who are selectively applying pressure?

All that said though, there are many people playing in the 1000s that have flaws in their game at very fundamental levels. For example, I've seen one player who is supposedly winning quite a bit of money limp UTG+1 with Q2s. I've seen people limp UTG with A9s, minraise from MP with ace-rag, and there's even the occasional player that will play damn near every single hand. And that only covers the preflop leaks. You don't need to do anything special to win -- just identify the mistakes that people are making and take advantage.

[/ QUOTE ]

limping utg w/A9s isnt a mistake if a few people have already doubled up and the satkes are big. raising is better though, but ill limp in some situations for specific reasons.

[/ QUOTE ]

raising A9s UTG in the 6 max you play is ok, but in a full ring game its no good.

Re: HIJACK for Bragging Purposes
 

[ QUOTE ]
I am talking about the shorthanded games

[/ QUOTE ]

I was not.

And I understand that very good postflop play can make up for playing weak hands preflop, but I didn't feel like elaborating for three paragraphs about all of the horrible postflop play that I've witnessed.

Re: HIJACK for Bragging Purposes
 

i have adjusted my play to more hands preflop and more annoyance raises for those reasons. so do you show big bluffs cero?

matt

Re: Big Jump - From Party $100NL to $1000NL??
 

If you are good enough at NLHE then starting with 1k at NL $100 you should be able to build up to NL 2k and $200 easy, and then from there to 4k and NL $400 easy and you wiwll be at 1k buy in soon. if you are not good enough then you might get stuck at a lower level and that is good that way you can't lose all yoru money

Re: Big Jump - From Party $100NL to $1000NL??
 

it is quite loose in a 6-handed game too.

Re: Big Jump - From Party $100NL to $1000NL??
 

i would default raise that A9s utg unless i had raised the last hand and/or i knew something about the palyers

Re: Big Jump - From Party $100NL to $1000NL??
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you are good enough at NLHE then starting with 1k at NL $100 you should be able to build up to NL 2k and $200 easy, and then from there to 4k and NL $400 easy and you wiwll be at 1k buy in soon. if you are not good enough then you might get stuck at a lower level and that is good that way you can't lose all yoru money

[/ QUOTE ]

So you are saying that $4K is a big enough bankroll to play the 400NL?

Are you also saying that if you've built your bankroll to $4K playing the 200NL that you are good enough to play the 400NL and win?

I ask because this happens to be my exact situation at the moment.

Re: Big Jump - From Party $100NL to $1000NL??
 

When I first started playing six-max I was extremely aggressive, and for UTG I would generally raise A9s and muck A8s/A9o. But after I had played it longer I began mucking A9s and raising with ATs/ATo (or limping, sorta depending on my mood and how the table was playing). I think the decision is close, and in the long run it probably won't matter much what you choose.

Re: Big Jump - From Party $100NL to $1000NL??
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you are good enough at NLHE then starting with 1k at NL $100 you should be able to build up to NL 2k and $200 easy, and then from there to 4k and NL $400 easy and you wiwll be at 1k buy in soon. if you are not good enough then you might get stuck at a lower level and that is good that way you can't lose all yoru money

[/ QUOTE ]

So you are saying that $4K is a big enough bankroll to play the 400NL?

Are you also saying that if you've built your bankroll to $4K playing the 200NL that you are good enough to play the 400NL and win?

I ask because this happens to be my exact situation at the moment.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are a couple of different ways that people think about bankroll. If you intend to always cash out when you're over 4k, then at some point you will go on a horrible downswing and lose that 4k. Your risk of ruin under that plan would be close to 100%. On the other hand, if you leave your winnings in your bankroll, then you will make enough money to ride out those rare, horrible downswings. With 10 buy-ins I think you are fine to take a shot, with the plan that if you start off winning, you'll continue there, and if you start off bad, you'll drop back down.

Re: Big Jump - From Party $100NL to $1000NL??
 

[ QUOTE ]
When I first started playing six-max I was extremely aggressive, and for UTG I would generally raise A9s and muck A8s/A9o. But after I had played it longer I began mucking A9s and raising with ATs/ATo (or limping, sorta depending on my mood and how the table was playing). I think the decision is close, and in the long run it probably won't matter much what you choose.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Soah:

The more hands you play, the better feel youll get for the game, and eventually youll play every hand when it come: sometimes it will be a good time to raise A8s UTG, and sometimes its a fold. When you start playing by a chart, sharks like me will pick up on it and rip the [censored] out of you.

Re: Big Jump - From Party $100NL to $1000NL??
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
When I first started playing six-max I was extremely aggressive, and for UTG I would generally raise A9s and muck A8s/A9o. But after I had played it longer I began mucking A9s and raising with ATs/ATo (or limping, sorta depending on my mood and how the table was playing). I think the decision is close, and in the long run it probably won't matter much what you choose.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Soah:

The more hands you play, the better feel youll get for the game, and eventually youll play every hand when it come: sometimes it will be a good time to raise A8s UTG, and sometimes its a fold. When you start playing by a chart, sharks like me will pick up on it and rip the [censored] out of you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Also, if you respond to this post of advice less than respectively, ill challenge you heads up, and then based on my experience (the jewish kid with the topgun icon) youll decline.

regards.

Re: HIJACK for Bragging Purposes
 

[ QUOTE ]
i have adjusted my play to more hands preflop and more annoyance raises for those reasons. so do you show big bluffs cero?

matt

[/ QUOTE ]

of course.

Re: Big Jump - From Party $100NL to $1000NL??
 

You may have missed this part: "or limping, sorta depending on my mood and how the table was playing." I suppose you could say that I play *every* hand based upon the circumstances -- it's just that for most hands I am going to come to the same decision regardless of the specific situation. While things like steal equity vary based upon the circumstances, the math doesn't change. If you have a hand like A4 UTG, it takes a lot of steal equity to overcome the fact that you're likely dominated and will very rarely flop anything strong enough to win a showdown in a big pot.

Re: Big Jump - From Party $100NL to $1000NL??
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you are good enough at NLHE then starting with 1k at NL $100 you should be able to build up to NL 2k and $200 easy, and then from there to 4k and NL $400 easy and you wiwll be at 1k buy in soon. if you are not good enough then you might get stuck at a lower level and that is good that way you can't lose all yoru money

[/ QUOTE ]

So you are saying that $4K is a big enough bankroll to play the 400NL?

Are you also saying that if you've built your bankroll to $4K playing the 200NL that you are good enough to play the 400NL and win?

I ask because this happens to be my exact situation at the moment.

[/ QUOTE ]

LuvDemNuts, I've always been more libreal with my bankroll than most and I've never had a problem, but I've been lucky too. I've taken some hits when moving up in stakes a bunch of times and I had to drop down and build back up a number of times but I don't have any responsibility with my money, and it's most challenging for me that way and get better faster and in the long run make more money so I like doing it that way.

So I'd say 4k is enough for NL$400 if you are smart, and if you know you ahve to drop if you lose some. Also I would say if you can build from 2k at NL200 to 4k at NL400 quickly and you feel confident and this is the key - you see yourself getting the money in with the best hand WHEN if you were your opponent you wouldn't have given as much action, then I'd say you can try higher stakes. Everyone has different opinions on bankroll managemant though and everyone tells me I am kind of crazy but this is my opinion on this.

Re: Big Jump - From Party $100NL to $1000NL??
 

btw in case i wasn't clear, what i mean is if you are ready to play 1k buy in nl then you shoudln't have a problem building up a proper bankroll for it at lower levels. (which is why i don't get why people ask for staking, if thye are good players they should build up to it easily

Re: Big Jump - From Party $100NL to $1000NL??
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you are good enough at NLHE then starting with 1k at NL $100 you should be able to build up to NL 2k and $200 easy, and then from there to 4k and NL $400 easy and you wiwll be at 1k buy in soon. if you are not good enough then you might get stuck at a lower level and that is good that way you can't lose all yoru money

[/ QUOTE ]

So you are saying that $4K is a big enough bankroll to play the 400NL?

Are you also saying that if you've built your bankroll to $4K playing the 200NL that you are good enough to play the 400NL and win?

I ask because this happens to be my exact situation at the moment.

[/ QUOTE ]

LuvDemNuts, I've always been more libreal with my bankroll than most and I've never had a problem, but I've been lucky too. I've taken some hits when moving up in stakes a bunch of times and I had to drop down and build back up a number of times but I don't have any responsibility with my money, and it's most challenging for me that way and get better faster and in the long run make more money so I like doing it that way.

So I'd say 4k is enough for NL$400 if you are smart, and if you know you ahve to drop if you lose some. Also I would say if you can build from 2k at NL200 to 4k at NL400 quickly and you feel confident and this is the key - you see yourself getting the money in with the best hand WHEN if you were your opponent you wouldn't have given as much action, then I'd say you can try higher stakes. Everyone has different opinions on bankroll managemant though and everyone tells me I am kind of crazy but this is my opinion on this.

[/ QUOTE ]

i agree w/ this at 100%.

Re: Big Jump - From Party $100NL to $1000NL??
 

[ QUOTE ]
LuvDemNuts, I've always been more libreal with my bankroll than most and I've never had a problem, but I've been lucky too. I've taken some hits when moving up in stakes a bunch of times and I had to drop down and build back up a number of times but I don't have any responsibility with my money, and it's most challenging for me that way and get better faster and in the long run make more money so I like doing it that way.

So I'd say 4k is enough for NL$400 if you are smart, and if you know you ahve to drop if you lose some. Also I would say if you can build from 2k at NL200 to 4k at NL400 quickly and you feel confident and this is the key - you see yourself getting the money in with the best hand WHEN if you were your opponent you wouldn't have given as much action, then I'd say you can try higher stakes. Everyone has different opinions on bankroll managemant though and everyone tells me I am kind of crazy but this is my opinion on this.

[/ QUOTE ]

As long as losing $2K at $400NL won't affect your play at $200NL when you have to move back down with the remaining $2K then I say move up and give it a go. .If you feel like losing $2K will hamper your play and put you on tilt you may want to wait for a bigger bankroll.

Re: Big Jump - From Party $100NL to $1000NL??
 

Big jump? Nah... [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: HIJACK for Bragging Purposes
 

Hi Matt,

[ QUOTE ]
do you show big bluffs cero?

[/ QUOTE ]

Against bad players, or those who I strongly suspect will tilt. Most of the good players on there will never see me bluff them unless they catch me. But I'm sure they still assume that I do, since my play (not just my image) is unmistakably loose and wild. A problem for them is that I sometimes make very large "in between" bets--meaning I have a medium-strong hand, and may get a desirable fold OR a desirable call, or both in one hand. Thus, they may correctly suspect that I'm not strong, but a bluff-catching hand may still not beat my hand. That is the most annoying thing by far, I think; to "catch" someone bluffing, and ultimately get value bet by middle pair.

Re: HIJACK for Bragging Purposes
 

The good ol' two-way bet. I love that play, but don't know how to use it effectively yet. Sklansky wrote an essay about it a long time ago in some book of his...

Cero, could you post an example of this where someone called you with a worse hand? Or just PM me one if you don't want to post it. Thanks [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]