\"I Play the Board,\" I lose the pot, I miss a bet.
 

Hawaiian Gardens 20-40. I raise PF with 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] from the cutoff, and get three callers including the button. At the river, it is just me and the button, and I try to buy the pot by betting with a board of J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. The button calls. A guy at the table says "I want too see both hands dealer," at which time I say loudly "I play the board" and throw my hand face down into the muck. The button then tosses his hand face down in the middle of the table.

The dealer fishes my cards out of the muck and shows them, then turns up the other guy's hand which is K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], giving him aces and kings. Hand over. He wins.

What ensues is 5 minutes of spirited discussion about the hand and the rules between at least 4 players from our table and one player from a nearby table with me making the claim that I would have won if the button's hand had not been turned up. It got to the point where the guy who asked to "see both hands" says to me, "I'll give you 10 to 1 odds on a $100 bet that you would not have won the hand if the other player's cards would have gone into the muck face down." Because he looked a little scary and was way tilted, I declined the bet. Along with the fear of getting beat up outside by the guy after winning the bet, there are always problems with bets like that, especially with people you don't know. And again, I didn't want to get beat up.

We called over the shift manager between hands and asked him the question, and he told us that even though I stated "I play the board" prior to my mucking my hand, I would not have won if the other guy would have mucked his hand. So the guy who offered me the 10 to 1 bet is cackling loudly saying "I told you I was right" blah blah blah. He left a bit later.

Twenty minutes or so go by, and the shift manager comes over and says he made a mistake (very cool guy, btw). He shows me the HG Poker Rules book, and it says "A player may announce 'I play the board' prior to folding his hand, and the board becomes his hand, and is live."

The end.

Sparks

Re: \"I Play the Board,\" I lose the pot, I miss a bet.
 

You need to learn the rules of cardrooms. You almost certainly should have been entitled to half the pot.

In any Vegas cardroom, the dealer should kill each player's hand before showing. When that happens, the two of you will split the pot.

Re: \"I Play the Board,\" I lose the pot, I miss a bet.
 

Where do I get a copy of poker-room rules such as these?

I only play live once every 2 months or so currently so my understanding of the rules is pretty much from some of the situations I have read around here combined with general common-sense.

Re: \"I Play the Board,\" I lose the pot, I miss a bet.
 

[ QUOTE ]
You need to learn the rules of cardrooms.

[/ QUOTE ]
Huh?

I was the only one in the whole building that knew the rule.

Sparks

Re: \"I Play the Board,\" I lose the pot, I miss a bet.
 

There is nothing in your post which indicates that you knew you were entitled to half the pot even though your opponent's pair of Kings were turned face up by the dealer.

Re: \"I Play the Board,\" I lose the pot, I miss a bet.
 

"Because he looked a little scary and was way tilted"

Is this a white guy with a Polo hat pushed way down so you can't see his forehead? Bets his chips in a very smooth fashion?

Re: \"I Play the Board,\" I lose the pot, I miss a bet.
 

[ QUOTE ]
There is nothing in your post which indicates that you knew you were entitled to half the pot even though your opponent's pair of Kings were turned face up by the dealer.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty sure I was entitled to the entire pot, not just half. I declared that I was playing the board, and he did not. But I made the decision that since his cards never hit the muck, I wouldn't pursue a decision. Ironically, if I HAD asked for a decision, it would have likely gone against me since the shift manager didn't know the rule about playing the board, nor did the dealer, nor did the part time floorman who was playing in the game.

I sumarized the above in my original post by saying "He won." Perhaps I could have fleshed that out a bit more. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Sparks

Note: The confusion here stems from what appears to be a conflict in Robert's Rules of Poker. Under General Poker Rules - The Showdown, paragraph 1 states that to win any part of the pot, both cards must be shown face up on the table. This is not correct, because when you declare you are playing the board, you don't have to show, which is described under the Hold 'em rules section, paragraph 6.

Re: \"I Play the Board,\" I lose the pot, I miss a bet.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Is this a white guy with a Polo hat pushed way down so you can't see his forehead?

[/ QUOTE ]
No. I had never seen the guy before.

Sparks

Re: \"I Play the Board,\" I lose the pot, I miss a bet.
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is not correct, because when you declare you are playing the board, you don't have to show, which is described under the Hold 'em rules section, paragraph 6.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not as conflicted as it seems. The rule in Robert's Rules of Poker is intended to protect someeone that isn't familiar with poker. When someone says "I'm playing the board" they know what their hand is; at this point the dealer should protect the muck. At this point if you are instructed to turn up your hand and then force it into tthe muck to avoid showing what you were playing your hand should be ruled dead. There is a difference between throwing your cards into the muck because you didn't know you were supposed to show them and throwing them into the muck to prevent the other players from seenig what you were playing (such as 2 ace of spades).

Re: \"I Play the Board,\" I lose the pot, I miss a bet.
 

These posts are showing up more and more. I have two thoughts:

1) I always show. What are you hiding anyway? Don't you want your opponents to know you'd play 89s in that fashion? If you show, you don't have to worry about the floor knowing obscure rules.

2) Although the other guy mucked his hand, I can't get too agitated when the best hand wins. I'd take this opportunity to tell "see both hands" guy to keep his mouth shut unless he suspects collusion. This "see both hands" rule is particularly atrocious with the internet players who don't understand that the rule is intended to prevent collusion and should not be used just because you are curious.

Re: \"I Play the Board,\" I lose the pot, I miss a bet.
 

What I really don't understand is why would a player muck his hand (that beats the board) when his opponent announces that they are playing the board. Was the player that bad or new to the game that he didn't realize aces and kings beats aces and jacks?

Re: \"I Play the Board,\" I lose the pot, I miss a bet.
 

The dealer violated one of the cardinal rules of poker: a dealer cannot turn over a live hand that has been tossed inward face down! ONLY a player can turn over their own live hand.

The floorman was right to question himself and look it up in the rulebook. Bravo.

al

Robert\'s rules
 

the absolute best source for rules is bob ciaffone's rules, at this link...

http://www.lasvegasvegas.com/poker/rrpprinter.php

print those babies out and it's like 56 pages. Good stuff, I use them as the basis for all decisions, tho of course with some temperance. But I haven't found a better set anywhere else.

This is another web-based version of the same rules that I and another dealer are working on...

http://www.dicedealer.com/pokerdealer_com.htm

al

Re: \"I Play the Board,\" I lose the pot, I miss a bet.
 

[ QUOTE ]

Note: The confusion here stems from what appears to be a conflict in Robert's Rules of Poker. Under General Poker Rules - The Showdown, paragraph 1 states that to win any part of the pot, both cards must be shown face up on the table. This is not correct, because when you declare you are playing the board, you don't have to show, which is described under the Hold 'em rules section, paragraph 6.

[/ QUOTE ]

From Robert's Rules at the above link:
SECTION 3 - GENERAL POKER RULES
THE SHOWDOWN
1. To win any part of a pot, a player must show all of his cards faceup on the table, whether they were used in the final hand played or not.
SECTION 5 - HOLD'EM
RULES
8. You must declare that you are playing the board before you throw your cards away; otherwise you relinquish all claim to the pot.

If these do not conflict, then there is only one interpretation for the second. You must show your hand, declare you are playing the board, and then you may muck it.

The way you want to interpret it is angle shooting, pure and simple. You want your opponenet to see you muck your hand, assume he has won, and muck his own.

Sorry, you got exactly what you deserved out of the pot.

Re: \"I Play the Board,\" I lose the pot, I miss a bet.
 

I believe that this is dealer error. The dealer could have asked, "Are you playing the board?" If yes, the dealer should have killed that hand that was tossed face-down on the table before showing it. Then it would have been dead and he could ONLY have had 1/2 the pot. If no, he should ask, "Are you sure?" If he says yes here, the dealer should have treated it as a fold and given you the pot. I believe the dealer messed this up huge.

I do not believe it is correct for a dealer to show ANY HAND that is no longer in control of the player BEFORE killing it, if the player did not specifically state call or fold (and here too the dealer would touch the hand to the muck) before tossing his hand face-down on the table.

This is how I would have done it if I were dealing that table...anyone think this is correct / wrong? Part of me, however, wants to muck that hand, and give you the pot (his action seems to indicate fold to me), but the better side of me would make that man clarify his actions 1st.

EDIT: To clarify my words.

Re: \"I Play the Board,\" I lose the pot, I miss a bet.
 

[ QUOTE ]
From Robert's Rules at the above link:
SECTION 3 - GENERAL POKER RULES
THE SHOWDOWN
1. To win any part of a pot, a player must show all of his cards faceup on the table, whether they were used in the final hand played or not.
SECTION 5 - HOLD'EM
RULES
8. You must declare that you are playing the board before you throw your cards away; otherwise you relinquish all claim to the pot.

If these do not conflict, then there is only one interpretation for the second. You must show your hand, declare you are playing the board, and then you may muck it.

[/ QUOTE ]

It sure looks like they conflict to me. And I suspect that's why so many people are either not aware of the 'play the board' rule, or just don't believe it, and this includes most dealers and players and many floormen. Rule 1 under Showdown is very clear and precise. So what is rule 8 trying to say? I THINK the rule is trying to require a player to declare his 'play the board' intention prior to mucking his hand, but needs to be revised to recognize that this is an exception to rule 1. Or perhaps Rule 1 should reference rule 8 as an exception.

Regardless, it is confusing at best. It sure looks like a conflict in RROP which needs to be corrected. I mean, if you say you play the board, and then muck your hand, are you live or not? According to RROP, you are live, no wait, you aren't, wait, you are..."

I think you're live, but I can't say for sure, based on the way the rules are written. Maybe Rick N. will give us his wisdom.

Sparks

Re: \"I Play the Board,\" I lose the pot, I miss a bet.
 

I just sent Bob Ciaffone an e-mail about these two rules. Perhaps he will enlighten us or even update the rules.

Re: \"I Play the Board,\" I lose the pot, I miss a bet.
 

[ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty sure I was entitled to the entire pot, not just half. I declared that I was playing the board, and he did not.

[/ QUOTE ]

I doubt there is a poker room in the world that would give you the entire pot.

Re: \"I Play the Board,\" I lose the pot, I miss a bet.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I do not believe it is correct for a dealer to show ANY HAND that is no longer in control of the player BEFORE killing it, if the player did not specifically state call or fold (and here too the dealer would touch the hand to the muck) before tossing his hand face-down on the table.


[/ QUOTE ]

The dealer generally taps the muck with the cards beofre turning them up, but this is for show. If the dealer turns up a hand (even without touching it to the muck) it is dead, unless the apparent winner of the pot asks to see it. There are obvious excpetions to this rule; I have seen a player with no hands that need help turning up there hands. I was once on the floor and told the dealer to go ahead and turn up a players hand for him; he was eating BBQ chicken and asked the dealer to turn up his hand so he wouldn't get sauce on the cards. The bottom line is if you attempt to shoot an angle the rules should be interpreted in a way that is least favorable to you. If someone shoots an angle agaisnt you the rules should be interpreted in a way that is most favorable to you. If an angle shooter is appears to have won a pot by shooting an angle the floor should exercise his right to rule contrary to the rules if it is in the best interest of the game.

RR

Re: \"I Play the Board,\" I lose the pot, I miss a bet.
 

I understood Angus to be saying that, in order to be consistent with 3.1, RROP 5.8 actually means that playing the board still involves showing both cards face up, making the announcement, then mucking them. However, in that case I don't understand why playing the board would be any different from any other hand where the cards speak, so perhaps you're correct that RROP intended 5.8 as an exception to 3.1.

At any rate, I look forward to Bob Ciaffone's response.

There's certainly no obligation to announce you're playing the board, right? The opponent could have turned his cards face up in view of the table and if he really were playing the board (and the winning hand was the board) then he'd get his share of the pot without saying a word, right?

Re: \"I Play the Board,\" I lose the pot, I miss a bet.
 

Bob Ciaffone says, "If you guys would forget about holdem and just play Omaha, this problem would never come up"

There is an inconsistency here.
I think a player should hold onto his hand when he tries to play the board,
and not toss it away.
If you guys would forget about holdem and just play Omaha, this problem
would never come up...

Seriously, I think someone who says Playing the Board" and tosses his hand
away should receive his part of the pot and a warning to not throw his hand
away.
In other words, a player who says "Play the Board" is supposed to hold onto
his hand, no question, but is it right to word the rule so he will be
screwed if he throws it in the muck?

What is your suggestion?

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 4:23 PM
Subject: A rules question


Bob Ciaffone,


There is a current discussion on the 2+2 board relative to two rules from
"Robert's Rules of Poker" that seem to be in conflict.
I was hoping if you could clarify a point.
They two rules in question are:

SECTION 3 - GENERAL POKER RULES
THE SHOWDOWN
1. To win any part of a pot, a player must show all of his cards faceup on
the table, whether they were used in the final hand played or not.
SECTION 5 - HOLD'EM
RULES
8. You must declare that you are playing the board before you throw your
cards away; otherwise you relinquish all claim to the pot.


One viewpoint is that under the second rule, a player may, without showing
his hand, declare that he is playing the board and then muck his hand.
This seems to be in conflict with the first rule.

Is this the proper interpretation of #8?

Re: \"I Play the Board,\" I lose the pot, I miss a bet.
 

Thanks, Tacjedi, for getting Ciaffone's response to this.

In my view, the Hawaiian Gardens rule should be abolished. The rule should be this: if either of your cards hits the muck while your opponent still has a live hand, then your hand is dead and you are not entitled to any share of the pot. I see no rationale for the HG exception to this rule that a player's cards can still be live if he declares he plays the board.

Perfectm asked why the opponent released his K6 without exposing it; didn't he know that he had aces and kings, which beat aces and jacks? Most likely the player assumed (reasonably although incorrectly) that Sparks's hand was dead when it hit the muck unexposed. The player either didn't hear Sparks say "I play the board" or didn't appreciate that under HG rules the effect of saying that was to make Sparks's hand immortal.

Ciaffone's rule 8 of section 5 is ambiguous and, in my view, unnecessary. Just delete it. If a player wants a share of the pot, let him show both cards.

Re: \"I Play the Board,\" I lose the pot, I miss a bet.
 

[ QUOTE ]
In my view, the Hawaiian Gardens rule should be abolished. The rule should be this: if either of your cards hits the muck while your opponent still has a live hand, then your hand is dead and you are not entitled to any share of the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with you M.B.E., if you want to get a part of the pot in a showndown, you need to show your cards, even if you are playing the board. And that means just getting rid of Rule 8. It's apparent purpose is to prevent a guy from mucking his hand (I guess inadvertantly) with a board which is the best hand, and getting a share of it. Is that so wrong? How is that any different that accidentally mucking a winning hand?

The more important reason to require a hand to be shown to win a share at showdown is because it is clearly (in my experience anyway) the prevailing understanding among poker players. That is, a hand must be shown in order for that player to win a part of the pot.

[ QUOTE ]
I see no rationale for the HG exception to this rule that a player's cards can still be live if he declares he plays the board.

[/ QUOTE ]

The rationale at HG is that it is stated as legal in Rule 8 of RROP. A line needs to be drawn through Rule 8 before the next edition of the poker rules comes out. Bob?

Sparks

Re: \"I Play the Board,\" I lose the pot, I miss a bet.
 

[ QUOTE ]
A line needs to be drawn through Rule 8 before the next edition of the poker rules comes out

[/ QUOTE ]

Some version of that rule has been in every set of poker rules I have ever seen. It is there to protect someeon that isn't familiar with poker that doesn't know he has to show his hand toplay the board. A good rule of thumb to follow when ruling on whether or not to declare a fouled hand dead (since your hand may be dead for touching the muck or otherwise being fouled) is to determine the intent of the player; if it is clear they knew what they had or were attempting to make a claim for the pot their hand is clearly live. On the other hand if they throw their cards into the muck and they play next to them says "you had a straight" that hadn is clearly dead. Most fouled hand situations fall somewhere in the middle and require good judgement on the part of the floor.

Randy Refeld

Re: \"I Play the Board,\" I lose the pot, I miss a bet.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Some version of that rule has been in every set of poker rules I have ever seen. It is there to protect someeon that isn't familiar with poker that doesn't know he has to show his hand toplay the board.

[/ QUOTE ]
The problem with that logic is that such a player wouldn't know he has to say "I play the board".

I've seen scenarios like this many times: final board is AKQJT, no betting on the river three-handed, two players turn their cards face up, the third player (who does not have much experience in public cardrooms) releases his cards without saying anything, dealer mucks the third player's hand and splits the pot between the first two players.

If we think there should be a rule to protect the inexperienced third player in this scenario, then it defeats the purpose to require him to utter a certain formula. The whole point is that he's inexperienced, so he can't be expected to know the formula.

If you want a rule to protect players in that situation, the rule should be as follows: "At the showdown, if nobody shows a hand that beats the board, then the pot shall be split evenly among all players who had a live hand at the moment the showdown began." Simple. But I'm not advocating such a rule; as I said earlier, I think players should have to show two cards to be entitled to a share of the pot at showdown. That concept is well known to anyone who has played in a public brick-and-mortar cardroom more than once or twice, and I believe that any exceptions to that concept will ultimately cause more harm than good.

Re: \"I Play the Board,\" I lose the pot, I miss a bet.
 

"It is there to protect someeon that isn't familiar with poker that doesn't know he has to show his hand toplay the board."

Why not change the rule to require that players hold ONTO their hand, but not have to show them, if they are playing the board?

That removes all doubt as to who is involved in the pot and who isn't. If you fold your hand, whether face up or face down, and it is killed in the muck, you are no longer involved in the pot, whether your hand is subsequently turned up (and could be a winner) or not. You fold, you give up your split.

If you hold onto your cards but no one shows anything to beat the board, you turn in your unflipped cards AFTER you claim your portion of the pot and the hand is finished.

How is this different than when everyone folds, you collect the pot and ONLY then turn your hand in? What do you gain by allowing people to verbally declare "I play the board" and then fold their hands before collecting the pot?

The only thing you lose is if someone is slipping cards into the game and you might catch them this way.
Is there a potential angle shot in here, where you hold your winning hand but declare "board"... and then turn over your winner to take the pot away from people?

I would only want a variation on the above if someone was angleshooting by verbally declaring a hand that they DIDN'T have, in order to get others to fold and increase their share of the split. I might want another ruling when it's an obviously rookie player, but I'm not sure how to fairly handle that.

Any thoughts?

Re: \"I Play the Board,\" I lose the pot, I miss a bet.
 

I thought a dealer could turn the hand over if someone requested?

Re: \"I Play the Board,\" I lose the pot, I miss a bet.
 

I am not going to reread the particulars of a month old thread, but there are some important rules to rember in poker. The best hand wins, if you want to win at the showdown without the best hand you are either a nit or an angle shooter (either way you should go back where you came from and leave the players alone). The floor is going to rule in the best interest of the game, if that means invoking their right to rule contrary to the written rules they will do so. A common mistake made by people new to poker is to think that there are written rules that tell the players and everyone else how to play. The way written rules came about is by writing down what happens in the game. The game was played first; if the rules don't reflect what an experienced floorman rules, it is the rule that needs to be changed.

Randy Refeld

Re: \"I Play the Board,\" I lose the pot, I miss a bet.
 

The result that ensued is the fairest one that could have happened - the best hand won the pot.

However, if the rules had been followed strickly, other outcomes could have prevailed.

Ultimately, the rule that all other rules can be overridden for the fairness and integrity of the game could have been invoked to set things straight, but there is no guarentee that would have happened.

The other player could have had his hand ruled dead for throwing his cards in face down and you could have won the entire pot. Or it could have been ruled he was playing the board and the pot should be split. Or it could have been ruled that you threw your cards in after you were asked to show them, so your hand is fouled and dead. In that case, if the board was the best hand, you would have suffered.

It just goes to show you that throwing your hand away almost always leads to bad things. In this case, your opponent's error in throwing his cards in almost hurt him so much as to make your muck beneficial. A doubly mucked up situation.

Re: \"I Play the Board,\" I lose the pot, I miss a bet.
 

I'm sorry if I'm misreading your tone here, but there seems to be some hostility in your reply. Did I miss something that I did here?

As to your reply, while I thank you for your thoughts, I have some questions/comments:

"I am not going to reread the particulars of a month old thread,"
Why not? It wouldn't impact your answer or your understanding of my questions?

" but there are some important rules to rember in poker. The best hand wins,"
If that were true, poker would be pretty boring.

" if you want to win at the showdown without the best hand you are either a nit or an angle shooter (either way you should go back where you came from and leave the players alone)."

This is a universal "you" and not me in particular?

" The floor is going to rule in the best interest of the game, if that means invoking their right to rule contrary to the written rules they will do so." and
"if the rules don't reflect what an experienced floorman rules, it is the rule that needs to be changed"

Do you see where this could be a problem?

"A common mistake made by people new to poker is to think that there are written rules that tell the players and everyone else how to play. "
I wasn't sure if you were referring to me here also, or people in general.

I did have a specific reason for posting, but I'll wait to see any further responses first.

Re: \"I Play the Board,\" I lose the pot, I miss a bet.
 

There no hostility intended. Once every few weeks someone wants to know if the winnign hand shoudl be declared dead so they can win the pot instead. The bottom line is if somebody puts their money and had the best hand they win. There are basically no exceptions to this, if the bets were equalized and you know someone has a better hand they win; anyone that asks the floor to award them the pot is at best a nit and at worse a thief.

Re: \"I Play the Board,\" I lose the pot, I miss a bet.
 

If the dealer is asked to see a hand by someone other than the person who is in the pot, they must first kill the hand, then show it. If it's still live, the dealer cannot turn it over, except if the person who is also in the pot asks, in which case the hand is live, and can still win the pot. But when a player folds a hand, it's a major error if the dealer turns it up while it's still live except as I have stated here.

al