The great Muckleshoot blunder of \'05
 

They blew it on this one. This one goes to the crack casino management staff as they're the ones who're responsible for this one. The floor and dealers hated it right along with the players so this isn't a reflection on the fine job that they do.

I guess it started when someone 'thought' they hit a bad beat JP. The rooms 'known' rules were Aces full of tens beaten. Both had to have an A in their hand, both cards must play.

Well, it hit but not that way. It was something like 3 aces on the board and a PP in hand, FH beaten by quads. So the guy on the losing end goes to the rules posted on the board and lo and behold, they forgot to change the wording. Word is that they didn't pay him off. Speculation ensues about that. Other word is that he got a lawyer and took them to the gambling commision. Not sure the result. My only problem with the guy would be if he knew the board said this in advance and didn't bother to mention it to anyone. Minor, but noteable.

So they decide to change the qualifier. Why, instead of just making it more clear on the posted rules they make it tougher to qualify all around? Who knows. They decide to make it Quads beaten. Evidently they implemented this at noon on saturday without announcing it or telling any of the players. (That part the floor is to blame)

2 JP qualifiers from the previous 'known' way go off and aren't paid. Think that's good? It gets better.

The memo they post about the new qualifier is Quads beaten by quads 'only'. How about quads beaten by a str8 flush? The floor is really not looking forward to the next 2 days as they'll have to wait that long to try and get it fixed as everyone key to the process is off for the weekend.

Tuesday comes, it isn't fixed yet. Guess what happens. A str8 flush beats a quad, both cards play. No JP. Players are pissed, floor is pissed at the casino mgt. for putting them in this spot, dealer watches the table empty. No compensation at all!?! I think even a comp would do something to ease the pain. At least it's a gesture in the right direction. BTW, the JP is about 30k.

They now have it back to normal, somewhat. Quads beaten, both cards must play.

What a mess.

b

Re: The great Muckleshoot blunder of \'05
 

This story makes me feel sick to my stomach.

Re: The great Muckleshoot blunder of \'05
 

I had this conversation with with the floor saturday night. They seemed like they knew what was comming in the next few days. It's a shame they fixed it I wanted to see how close my 90K estimate was going to be. Though even adding in SF's it shouldn't change my number much.

Re: The great Muckleshoot blunder of \'05
 

Why wouldn't they just give out the BBJ? Is the money coming out of the casino coffers directly? This should be one of those things were the casino does not benefit from not paying out the BBJ.

Re: The great Muckleshoot blunder of \'05
 

When the new rules were posted, they were posted by Casino managment in a memo as Quads beaten by Quads. Obviously the upper level manager was not a poker player.

Since Quads beaten by a SF doesn't qualify the jackpot doesn't go, and after getting called on the carpet because of the rules posted before I wouldn't expect anything different to happen. We have a classic managerial over reaction, correcting the original problem would have been a $10 printing job, this one likely lost them some long term customers.

BTW bernie did the red chip jackpot petition go anywhere? I'm betting not.

Re: The great Muckleshoot blunder of \'05
 

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BTW bernie did the red chip jackpot petition go anywhere? I'm betting not.


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I don't know what that petition was. What is it?

b

Re: The great Muckleshoot blunder of \'05
 

Jesus, what a clusterfuck. I had always thought that the Muck was the best run room I had played in (small sample size, but still). I can't imagine how I would feel if I was one of the 'winners' who didn't get paid. Ugh.

Re: The great Muckleshoot blunder of \'05
 

[ QUOTE ]
Jesus, what a clusterfuck. I had always thought that the Muck was the best run room I had played in (small sample size, but still). I can't imagine how I would feel if I was one of the 'winners' who didn't get paid. Ugh.

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Certainly would be enough to not go back, with all of the other card rooms around. ESPECIALLY if you're a Muck regular who has been paying into that jackpot fund for years....

Re: The great Muckleshoot blunder of \'05
 

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I had always thought that the Muck was the best run room I had played in (small sample size, but still).

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It's still the best overall. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] Seems most times I play elsewhere, Im thankful.

Along with the fact no other room in the world (that I know of) regularly gives back around 500k to the players throughout the year.

b

Re: The great Muckleshoot blunder of \'05
 

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Certainly would be enough to not go back, with all of the other card rooms around. ESPECIALLY if you're a Muck regular who has been paying into that jackpot fund for years....

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Considering how much they give back to the players in comparison to anyone other room you'll ever play in, this, imo, would be a mistake.

Not saying it doesn't suck, however.

b

Re: The great Muckleshoot blunder of \'05
 

I agree the the Muck is probably the best run room in Seattle (thought Parker's isn't bad) but after playing at the Commerce in LA for a few days it was hard to come back. Five minute wait, no smoking, free (and tasty!) food, and 20-40 games softer than our average 4-8 game here.

I kind of had hope that this jackpot debacle could lend momentum for removing the jackpot drop from the bigger games, but I honestly have mixed feeling about that since the jackpot attracts players that I would prefer to have in the game, even I personally would prefer it to be gone.

Re: The great Muckleshoot blunder of \'05
 

Did you notice the [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] I added to that statement?

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but I honestly have mixed feeling about that since the jackpot attracts players that I would prefer to have in the game,

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Im not sure how one could measure it, but I think it adds a bit of action. Say the pot is $200 after all the drops. I'd think that the added JP brings in more than enough action to make up for the .5(or less)to 1% they will take out of a winning players pot.

Now the way they have it, it gives opponents less of a reason to play ATo, AJo when Im raising my dominating hands.

b

Re: The great Muckleshoot blunder of \'05
 

You are calling the Muck's drawings generous? Alllll those FH and Quad tickets handed out every day, so they can give away a thousand dollars three days a week? It certainly looks busy the way casinos do.

But really.... for a place that is collecting something close to $5000 a day in jackpot drops day in and day out - it vanishes into a black hole.

My last trip south I played at the Last Frontier in La Center. Seven tables, and they give away $250 to the high hand every hour on the hour - that's *more* than they can collect in jackpot drops even if they drop every pot at every table.

I still went back to the Muck since it was otherwise nicer. Are other cardrooms really so stingy with jackpot payouts that the Muck looks generous? (Too bad the fish and the casino management wouldn't go for a clever idea like getting rid of both the jackpot and the drop. There's an idea I'd like.)

Jsut for the record, could a regular at the Muck give an idea how much the bad beat normally increases from one day to the next? It has always been between 30 and 32k every time I've played, and its never been changed at approximately 6PM like the sign on the wall says it will be. I am taking it on faith that they really do update it sometime every day and it does bear some relationship to how much they drop.....

Re: The great Muckleshoot blunder of \'05
 

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so they can give away a thousand dollars three days a week?

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FH drawings are given away about 30 times a week. Lowest payout, if eligible, is $100. Highest seen is 4k.

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Are other cardrooms really so stingy with jackpot payouts that the Muck looks generous?

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Name a cardroom that gives away 100k every 4 months from a non-JP drop pool. That alone is 300k a year. Yes, I consider that rather generous.

The JP has been from $600 to 70k. Average when hit was about 30k. It also goes up much faster now that the Super JP is no longer there.

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(Too bad the fish and the casino management wouldn't go for a clever idea like getting rid of both the jackpot and the drop. There's an idea I'd like.)

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Yeah. Now that would be clever. :rolls eyes:

b

Re: The great Muckleshoot blunder of \'05
 

30 drawings a week at $100 each = fixed expense of 100k a year. They only increase past $100 when they aren't hit. And you are SURE this isn't paid for by taking a few hundred from the jackpot drop every day? (I just assumed it was jackpot money - never occurred to me that that might NOT be the source of this money, actually.)

Must-be-present-to-win drawings held only certain days of the week, incidentally = EV absolutely zero, to anyone who works those days of the week or who (like me) only gets to play for a day or two when he passes through town on business.

I don't begrudge the locals some loyalty perks. But I can think of a lot of ways I'd rather see them do it than the one they use. And they are very clever to make it look like a lot more money than it really is.

Re: The great Muckleshoot blunder of \'05
 

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I don't begrudge the locals some loyalty perks. But I can think of a lot of ways I'd rather see them do it than the one they use. And they are very clever to make it look like a lot more money than it really is

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Like what?

What other room, that has a JP drop, comes even close to the amount that mucks gives back to the players per year? Along with to as many different players that get money back instead of maybe only the ones on the badbeat tables that may happen every other month or so. Keep in mind, pretty much every cardroom in the NW has a JP drop.

Im not too happy that they don't do the 100k freeroll tourney any more. That kinda sucks.

b

Jackpot law in Wa state.
 

Wash St. JP law

At mucks, employees are not eligible for drawings or freerolls at any time.

According to this, the room can only keep 10% of the JP drop for administrative fees .

b

Re: Jackpot law in Wa state.
 

Id just as soon they drop the badbeat jackpot and have a monte carlo. Course I don't really play much at the muck, so it doesnt really matter to me, lol

Re: Jackpot law in Wa state.
 

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Id just as soon they drop the badbeat jackpot and have a monte carlo.

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I like a monte carlo, but I don't think it works as well in a bigger room. That'd be alot for a floor to keep track of and take care of on busy nights. It'd be interesting to try though.

b

Re: The great Muckleshoot blunder of \'05
 

This already happened to me last night in the 10-20. I raised in early position with AQo and a guy in middle position folded saying "I guess I don't need to call with AT anymore since it can't hit the jackpot" *sigh*

Re: Jackpot law in Wa state.
 

Monte Carlo jackpots don't work that well in bigger rooms because they always get hit and never have a chance to build. They work really well at small rooms with 4-6 tables, I think.

(I like the Monte Carlos better than bad-beat, because I actually have a chance to hit one. I know, I know, Bernie, anyone can hit a bad beat JP, but we're not all as lucky as you.) [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Jackpot law in Wa state.
 

Forgive my ignorance but what's a Monte Carlo jackpot? A google search turned up nothing

Re: Jackpot law in Wa state.
 

A Monte Carlo is where you get a small jackpot for having quads or a straight flush. Both cards in your hand have to play, and usually there needs to be a certain amount in the pot for them to qualify.

I've hit them from $400 (quad 8s) to $1,500 (quad aces after the JP had been building for a while) at casinos ranging from two tables to four tables. They get hit a lot more often than bad-beat jackpots, so they don't usually get huge. Most places fund the royal at a higher percentage, so that's usually the highest jackpot.

Re: Jackpot law in Wa state.
 

thanks.

Re: The great Muckleshoot blunder of \'05
 

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Name a cardroom that gives away 100k every 4 months from a non-JP drop pool. That alone is 300k a year. Yes, I consider that rather generous.


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They're charging me 50% more rake than everywhere else I've played. I don't want to pay extra rake and then hope to get some of it back through stupid [censored] lotteries that require me to show up on weeknights for drawings. I want them to not take the money in the first place. That would be what I would call rather generous. I used to play 10/20 at the Hideaway and the rake was $2 with a $1 jackpot drop. At Tulalip, 15/30 has a $2 drop with no jackpot. At Muck, I'm paying $3 in rake and $1 in jackpot drop for every hand I win. I put up with it because I still think it's the best place to play, but at that price I'm certainly not going to start singing their praises for handing out full house tickets.

Re: The great Muckleshoot blunder of \'05
 

I went to the muck tonight. When I showed up at 8pm there were 2 empty tables?! By 1 only half the tables were full.

Are people boycotting the muck? If so, where is everyone going?

Re: The great Muckleshoot blunder of \'05
 

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I went to the muck tonight. When I showed up at 8pm there were 2 empty tables?! By 1 only half the tables were full.

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The last couple months have been slow in general. Usually 1 of the 2 nights, fri/sat, will be busy and the other slow.

b

Re: The great Muckleshoot blunder of \'05
 

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They're charging me 50% more rake than everywhere else I've played.

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Ok, so you name 2 places, 1 that's closed. How about the other 50 casino/cardrooms in the state?

Played lil's? Great room, same rake/JP drop as mucks.

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I used to play 10/20 at the Hideaway and the rake was $2 with a $1 jackpot drop. At Tulalip, 15/30 has a $2 drop with no jackpot.

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I believe the initial $3 is standard in most rooms and has been for quite a while.

Does Tulalip only take a JP for non-red chip games? Or have they not implemented a JP yet? If not, they will. I'd be suprised if they didn't. They have other problems besides that. Everyone else in South king county has the $3 rake plus $1 JP that I know of. Hideaway 'was' the only 1 with the $2 in the seattle area + surrounding areas.

As far as using different ways to give back the JP money instead of just to 1 badbeat pool, I think is better. It also tends to favor the regulars a little more the way they do it.

b

Re: The great Muckleshoot blunder of \'05
 

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Does Tulalip only take a JP for non-red chip games? Or have they not implemented a JP yet? If not, they will.

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They take jackpot for 10/20 and smaller. They even take it for the tournament (there is an extra entry fee and the regular jackpot can be hit in the tournaments). But they don't take it in 15/30 and up (I'm not sure if it is taken in all the no limit games). Because they players in that game made it clear that they don't want it. For all the problems they have, at least they make an effort do listen to their players. Do you think Muck is ever going to let us get rid of the jackpot for the 20/40? I don't think so.

Re: The great Muckleshoot blunder of \'05
 

[ QUOTE ]
I went to the muck tonight. When I showed up at 8pm there were 2 empty tables?! By 1 only half the tables were full.

Are people boycotting the muck? If so, where is everyone going?

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No. Last night was a pretty typical Saturday. I think that once they started the 4/8 on table 1, they have every table going. Yeah, by 1am things had broken down quite a bit (for a brief period we had open seats in our 20/40 with no list, but then it filled back up), but that's not really unusual.

Re: The great Muckleshoot blunder of \'05
 

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Do you think Muck is ever going to let us get rid of the jackpot for the 20/40? I don't think so.

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Slavic told me they had a petition going around about it. I'm not sure if they've ever really been confronted on it.

I'm still wondering just how much having a JP affects action on the table. That includes the 20 game and higher as some of those players are also the type that would play for a JP. Elena mentioned above how someone didn't play AT for 2 bets because the JP was changed. If that was the 20 game, that's $40 right off the bat for that one hand that would've been in play. Which for that incident is a $39 loss. (greatly oversimplified example, but I think you'll get the gist of what I'm getting at)

So, does the action make up for the extra amount paid? (which isn't the full $1 given you can get some back with the drawings and stuff) I don't know. So in that regard, I'm undecided on it but lean towards having it because I know some do play looser because of it.

On a side note: I tend to hit a couple drawings a year(not counting the big one [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]). Especially the freeeroll 100K deal. So as a regular, I don't think the JP drop affects me as much. I guess I'd have to measure it with the # of pots I win a year, figure the JP drop from it, and see how close I come to it.

b

Hit!
 

Last night (Sun.) the new jackpot got him in 3/6. It was quads over quads. Jackpot was at ~$35k.

Re: Hit!
 

[ QUOTE ]
Last night (Sun.) the new jackpot got him in 3/6. It was quads over quads. Jackpot was at ~$35k.

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The jackpot was ALMOST hit at Lil's yesterday. Just a funny low content story, wasn't at my table, but next to us. Flop came out with 3 aces. I guess a guy with A9 had folded PF, after limping and having it come back to him capped - and the capper had J9. One of the raisers had JJ, so it would have hit for 16k.

Yeah, my story has no point, but I thought it was funny. I don't know who felt worse, the guy who folded, or the guy with JJ who would have hit the bad beat. They were ready to kill the guy who capped with J9.

Re: Hit!
 

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They were ready to kill the guy who capped with J9.

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Why not kill the guy with JJ also? After all, he raised too. I love these idiots. Hindsight pieces of crap.

What would be funnier is if they were all berating him yet on the board there's a T or higher.

It's this type of reaction on tables that make you wonder just how much extra action is generated by these dips because of the JP.

b

Re: Hit!
 

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They were ready to kill the guy who capped with J9.

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Why not kill the guy with JJ also? After all, he raised too. I love these idiots. Hindsight pieces of crap.

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Ha ha, nice. Yes, they made the guy with JJ feel bad too. Pretty funny stuff.

Re: Hit!
 

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Last night (Sun.) the new jackpot got him

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Of course, that was supposed say "got hit" for anyone trying to decipher what that sentence means.

Re: Hit!
 

[ QUOTE ]

Why not kill the guy with JJ also? After all, he raised too. I love these idiots. Hindsight pieces of crap.



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Yes, but nolan and i had a lot of fun laughing at the other table as they all yelled at eachother. Actually, jay was playing at the "almost jackpot" table, but maybe he'd left by that time.

Re: Hit!
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Why not kill the guy with JJ also? After all, he raised too. I love these idiots. Hindsight pieces of crap.



[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but nolan and i had a lot of fun laughing at the other table as they all yelled at eachother. Actually, jay was playing at the "almost jackpot" table, but maybe he'd left by that time.

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Yeah, wayabvpar was at that table, but had left already.

Re: Hit!
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Why not kill the guy with JJ also? After all, he raised too. I love these idiots. Hindsight pieces of crap.



[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but nolan and i had a lot of fun laughing at the other table as they all yelled at eachother. Actually, jay was playing at the "almost jackpot" table, but maybe he'd left by that time.

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Yeah, wayabvpar was at that table, but had left already.

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I figured he had, but didn't pay enough attention to the exact timing of events to be sure when replying to this thread:).