Fold or raise the flop from the button? I raised.
 

I have to raise the flop, don't I? I do not have exact reads but I'm assuming straight draws aplenty and perhaps I'm outkicked for top pair. The river was scary, so I checked too.

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (7 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(7 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls.

Turn: (9.50 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, CO checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO folds.

River: (13.50 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 13.50 BB

Re: Fold or raise the flop from the button? I raised.
 

The flop raise is absolutely correct.
I'm interested to hear what others think about checking the river.

Re: Fold or raise the flop from the button? I raised.
 

I don't know if this is right, but I would smooth call, then raise the turn if the turn isn't an overcard, or a straight card. I figure you're not getting a gutshot draw to fold on the flop for one more small bet. If I'm wrong could someone help me plug this leak? [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Folding is definitely the wrong play though.

Re: Fold or raise the flop from the button? I raised.
 

I play this the same way.

Re: Fold or raise the flop from the button? I raised.
 

I think waiting for the turn might be better. I'd like to hear the thoughts of others though.

Re: Fold or raise the flop from the button? I raised.
 

Looks to me like your out of position to be able to protect your hand on the flop. I say call here and wait to the turn to protect your hand.

Re: Fold or raise the flop from the button? I raised.
 

By raising the flop you have given the others 14-1 to call.

Re: Fold or raise the flop from the button? I raised.
 

Now that I look at it, this is correct. Raising the flop actually hurts in this regard because it almost guarantees that everyone will have odds to call everything on the turn regardless of what you do. Raise the turn instead and it is now wrong to call a gutshot draw.

This concept is the one I have the most trouble applying from SSH - waiting until the turn to protect a hand.

So I will play it the way the OP did. But I should wait for the turn. Ha.

Re: Fold or raise the flop from the button? I raised.
 

[ QUOTE ]

This concept is the one I have the most trouble applying from SSH - waiting until the turn to protect a hand.

So I will play it the way the OP did. But I should wait for the turn. Ha.

[/ QUOTE ]

What helps me in situations like this is asking myself if I raise, will I be forcing folds? When everyone involved in the hand has called one bet on the flop, they won't fold for another one, so, in this case, the answer is no; thus, waiting for the turn is the better play.

Re: Fold or raise the flop from the button? I raised.
 

Results:

River: (13.50 BB) 7h (4 players)
SB checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 13.50 BB

Results below:
SB has Ks Kh (one pair, kings).
MP1 has Ah Th (one pair, tens).
MP2 has 6c 7c (two pair, sevens and sixes).
Hero has Jc Td (one pair, tens).
Outcome: MP2 wins 13.50 BB.

Re: Fold or raise the flop from the button? I raised.
 

I fold this PF.

Re: Fold or raise the flop from the button? I raised.
 

I don't think you should be.

Re: Fold or raise the flop from the button? I raised.
 

Man, SB played that horribly.

Re: Fold or raise the flop from the button? I raised.
 

This makes me mad at the SB. There was no reason this had to happen. Raise, silly monkey!

Re: Fold or raise the flop from the button? I raised.
 

I think the MP1 should have raised the flop. It would have saved me a few bets. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

I think y'all are right. I should have called the flop and raised the turn if possible. I gave everyone reason to stay in.

Re: Fold or raise the flop from the button? I raised.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Raise the turn instead and it is now wrong to call a gutshot draw.

[/ QUOTE ]
Is this actually true? If we only call on the flop, there are 6.5 BB going in to the turn. If SB bets out again on the turn and even only 2 call, they'd be getting at least 10.5:1 to call if we raise. I'm not sure the turn raise protects anything.

But I struggle with this concept as well, so I could be off.

Re: Fold or raise the flop from the button? I raised.
 

I'd really like to get a more educated opinion here as to the flop raise vs. the turn raise. I still feel that raising the flop was correct,but I can't really articulate the reasons why. I do think that the raise on the flop saved you money as the other players (who were beating you) responded by playing so passivly.

Anyway, I'd love to get a more definitive opinion on this.

Re: Fold or raise the flop from the button? I raised.
 

That's a good point about the raise - it may not drive others out, but it could earn us a free card. (Or cause others to play passively, as you pointed out.)

On an unrelated topic, check out MP2's equity with bottom pair, GSD, and BDFD on the flop. Crazy.

[ QUOTE ]
Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

6,374,286 games 8.020 secs 794,798 games/sec

Board: Tc 6s 8h
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 26.1534 % [ 00.26 00.00 ] { KsKh }
Hand 2: 17.5373 % [ 00.17 00.00 ] { AhTh }
Hand 3: 24.3184 % [ 00.23 00.01 ] { 7c6c }
Hand 4: 10.4430 % [ 00.10 00.01 ] { JcTd }
Hand 5: 10.9519 % [ 00.11 00.00 ] { random }
Hand 6: 10.5960 % [ 00.09 00.02 ] { random }


[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Fold or raise the flop from the button? I raised.
 

If you raise the flop, you are doing so for value. If you raise the turn, you are also doing so for value. I have seen some people talk about giving incorrect odds, and what you have to understand is that when you call a bet (not closing the action) and you know that it will get raised behind you, you are effectively calling 2 bets cold. So if you are going to raise the flop 100% of the time in this spot, you are giving everyone 17:2 = 8.5:1 on the flop. So anyone who called the 1st bet with something like 95 is making a mistake though they don't realize it when they call the 1st bet. This is why whenever you decide to call a bet, you have to estimate how often it will get raised behind you. If you are getting 10:1 on a 10:1 shot but think that there is 20% chance of a raise behind you, you should fold.

Brad

Re: Fold or raise the flop from the button? I raised.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I have to raise the flop, don't I? I do not have exact reads but I'm assuming straight draws aplenty and perhaps I'm outkicked for top pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

This problem is tough for me too. I don't think you have to raise the flop due to your low pot equity in this large field. Pstove gives the JT less than 24% against 6 random hands. As you said, you are often against better hands so your pot equity will be much less.

I think the turn would be raised so you could make a decision to fold, or raise depending on what happens. If it was checked then bet to protect.