$109 tourney, T5s hand
 

$109 tourney, about 25 left out of 150, I'm about 5th or so, second stack in the table. I wasn't stealing much recently, didn't play too many pots, so I do it now. Chip leader at the table (2nd over all I think), a solid, not extremely aggressive, player, is sitting on the BB.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t600 (8 handed) converter

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

<font color="#C00000">Hero (t14985)</font>
Button (t3727)
SB (t4008)
<font color="#C00000">BB (t18220)</font>
UTG (t5150)
UTG+1 (t8041)
MP1 (t10104)
MP2 (t12306)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t1600</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB calls t1000.

Flop: (t2950) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t1800</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to t4200</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t13335</font>, BB calls t9135.

Turn: (t29620) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

River: (t29620) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Final Pot: t29620

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
BB has 5c 5s (three of a kind, fives).
Hero has 5d Td (two pair, tens and fives).
Outcome: BB wins t29620. </font>

I want some feedback on this hand. It's not a "could I get away from it" post, as I'd really like to hear if I played it the best possible way, or maybe like an idiot. I simply wonder if bottom 2p is enough to risk this tourney here, as the aggressor, against the only stack that can bust me, and who might not call this all-in without a hand that beats me. Any thoughts?

Re: $109 tourney, T5s hand
 

If you haven't been too active PF why pick that hand?

The only stack that can break you is in the BB and you have a marginal, (if not poor) holding.

I understand not needing a hand to steal, but you have 8 other targets at the table who can't break you.

I go broke on this flop every time.

Regards,
Woodguy

Re: $109 tourney, T5s hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you haven't been too active PF why pick that hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

IMO, not being too active PF is actually a good reason to pick pretty much anything _sometimes_ when it's folded to you. There are 2 reasons for this: 1) people respect your PF raises 2) when you get called and hit a great flop, your hand will be well concealed, because people will not normally put you on bizzare/garbage hands if you havn't played too many pots in a while. Of course, that didn't work for me in that spot.

Playing relatively tight makes stealing with a wide range of hands, occasionally, better than if you do that while playing loose. When you play loose, your big PF hands are the ones that have more value, obviously.

Re: $109 tourney, T5s hand
 

Obviously you have pretty much no choice but to go broke here. Preflop on Stars I think you should make a slightly larger raise. With 900 in blinds + 450 in antes you're just giving the big stacked BB or any BB odds that are too good. I've usually been coming in for around 3.5x on Stars once antes come into play. I know it wasn't the question, just something to think about for next time.

Re: $109 tourney, T5s hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
IMO, not being too active PF is actually a good reason to pick pretty much anything _sometimes_ when it's folded to you. There are 2 reasons for this: 1) people respect your PF raises 2) when you get called and hit a great flop, your hand will be well concealed, because people will not normally put you on bizzare/garbage hands if you havn't played too many pots in a while. Of course, that didn't work for me in that spot.

Playing relatively tight makes stealing with a wide range of hands, occasionally, better than if you do that while playing loose. When you play loose, your big PF hands are the ones that have more value, obviously.


[/ QUOTE ]

I understand all that and agree with your reasoning. I would use all that to attack every other blind on the board.

My point was more "why try to steal the blind of the only player who can break you with T5s"?

If I'm 2nd stack at the table I tend to avoid the one guy who can break me unless I have a good holding.

Regards,
Woodguy

Re: $109 tourney, T5s hand
 

Thanks, I've been thinking about the PF raises size quite a lot, and found out that on certain tables and conditions a slightly less than 3xBB could work quite well, even if there are antes, and even though the BB gets OK odds. But maybe the fact that it was the big-stack on the BB should have changed my raise size here. Not sure. I think he calls me here with a PP regardless if I raise ~2.5xBB or 3.5xBB. There could be some other hands that he would call for the smaller raise and fold otherwise of course.

Re: $109 tourney, T5s hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
If I'm 2nd stack at the table I tend to avoid the one guy who can break me unless I have a good holding.

[/ QUOTE ]

I partly agree with this, but not completely. Surely I'd be more happy to steal the blind from a stack that I have covered, but I don't think it is really unreasonable to attempt to steal from the big stack, who wasn't playing too loose or anything, especially if I can get away from many hands if I get reraised, or get called, not hit anything, and face resistance.

Against some very loose big stack opponents (there are many players who when playing a big stack are willing to make huge calls and raises with very marginal hands post-flop), i'll be just delighted to get a PF call and hit this particular flop, although I'm not sure I'd steal from such a player. I think the fact that he's a big stack is a bit less important than the way I think he plays, as there isn't a huge differece here if he has me coverd by 4K or I have him covered by 4k, IMO.

Re: $109 tourney, T5s hand
 

first, your preflop raise is too small imo.

second, with the amount of chips you and the other guy have, if i were you i definitely would not have gone all in with bottom 2-pair. considering the small-ish preflop raise, i'd expect to be shown something like jt or a set of 5s or 10s too often in this situation. would the bb really put that many chips at risk with aj/kj? i think you try to take it down on the flop, but if you get resistance you concede it and wait for a better spot, esp. against the smaller stacks who will be more desperate.

Re: $109 tourney, T5s hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
i'd expect to be shown something like jt or a set of 5s or 10s too often in this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the toughts. But I just want to make sure that you do realize that there is only 1 possible combination for 55, and 1 for TT (for my opp to hold)? So obviously you won't be seeing these hands often here.

I do agree that JT is a hand I am more worried about (6 combinations), obviously. And I do put him in a tough spot if he has TPTK and even TP2ndK, although in this case pushing against him is probably not optimal, as I don't give him a chance to feel more comfortable about his hand. However, only calling his check-raise is dangarous with only a vulnerable bottom 2p.

Anyway, you don't give any other line of playing post-flop. I'm interested to see how you would have played it (and I gave my reasons for the "smallish" PF raise in another post in this thread).

Re: $109 tourney, T5s hand
 

How about checking behind on the flop. I like that for several reasons. If you bet the flop he folds stuff he misses, and he plays back with top pair or a hand that beats you. If you check behind many times he will bet out the turn no matter what hits in order to try and take it down. I would then call the turn and either call or value bet the river. In this way you get the most out of him when he has nothing and lose the least when you're crushed. The only times you might let him off is when he flops a J and the turn and or river are action killing cards. The other nice thing about this game is metagame considerations. If you check behind on the flop sometimes with good hands, you will discourage opponents from betting the turn when you check behind the flop with nothing. This situation can be very profitable because now you can check behind on the flop when your blind steals miss to avoid a possible c-raise. Then your opponent will be more likely to check the turn to you if he hasn't hit and you will be able to pick it up with even less risk.

Re: $109 tourney, T5s hand
 

Thanks MLG. I like it, and I certainly think that my bottom 2p in this spot and board is a hand which is not making me too much money the way I played it. Actually - it makes more sense to play the way I did with complete nothing, than with bottom 2p.

I think that the fact that I'm against a reasonable big stack, which will probably not call all-in here with hands I beat, but might try to take it down if I check behind on the flop with many hands that I beat, could be a good reason to keep this pot relatively small, and not commit to it too early. Surely I might find myself later on in this hand facing some tough decisions (if straight cards fall, for instance), but still it might be better EV than how I've played it.

Recently I find myself too many times making strong moves with very nice hands but not great ones, only to get called by better hands, heald by tough opponents who won't call anyway with worse hands, most of the time. It's something to work on. Playing a bit more "passively" with these nice but 2nd rate hands.

Re: $109 tourney, T5s hand
 

yes the way ahead/way behind concept. Its important. learn it, live it, love it.

Re: $109 tourney, T5s hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i'd expect to be shown something like jt or a set of 5s or 10s too often in this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the toughts. But I just want to make sure that you do realize that there is only 1 possible combination for 55, and 1 for TT (for my opp to hold)? So obviously you won't be seeing these hands often here.

[/ QUOTE ]

i should have been more clear before. what i meant to say was that if the big stack is willing to commit all his chips here (or close enough against you, the second-largest stack), he's most often doing it with jt here, and also 55 and tt. i didn't mean those are the hands he'll usually have in absolute terms, but those are the hands i'd expect him to be check-raising the second-largest stack with.

[ QUOTE ]
I do agree that JT is a hand I am more worried about (6 combinations), obviously. And I do put him in a tough spot if he has TPTK and even TP2ndK, although in this case pushing against him is probably not optimal, as I don't give him a chance to feel more comfortable about his hand. However, only calling his check-raise is dangarous with only a vulnerable bottom 2p.

[/ QUOTE ]

i agree that calling is pretty bad, unless you're willing to put the rest in. i think i'd grit my teeth and fold to the check-raise here.

[ QUOTE ]
Anyway, you don't give any other line of playing post-flop. I'm interested to see how you would have played it (and I gave my reasons for the "smallish" PF raise in another post in this thread).

[/ QUOTE ]

ok, leaving aside the preflop issue, i'd have played it the same way you did, except i would have likely folded to the check-raise. imo smooth-calling the check-raise is not even an option. it's all-in or fold time there.

Re: $109 tourney, T5s hand
 

Folding to the c-raise here is very bad in my opinion. You will be laying down the best hand far more often that you will be beaten.

Re: $109 tourney, T5s hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Folding to the c-raise here is very bad in my opinion. You will be laying down the best hand far more often that you will be beaten.

[/ QUOTE ]

when you get check-raised here, what hand do you put check-raiser on?

Re: $109 tourney, T5s hand
 

any J, some 10s a straight draw of a pure bluff. Keep in mind the situation. The BB has just defended from a late position raise. The raiser is very likely going to follow through on the flop whether or not he has a hand. The big blind has more than enough chips to c-raise and fold to a push. If BB has less chips this move indicates a lot more strength.

Re: $109 tourney, T5s hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
any J, some 10s a straight draw of a pure bluff. Keep in mind the situation. The BB has just defended from a late position raise. The raiser is very likely going to follow through on the flop whether or not he has a hand. The big blind has more than enough chips to c-raise and fold to a push. If BB has less chips this move indicates a lot more strength.

[/ QUOTE ]

good point. with that in mind, pushing the flop would likely have been my move as well after the check-raise. nevertheless, after what you said here, your other post about checking behind on the flop looks even better.

Re: $109 tourney, T5s hand
 

I haven't read the other replies yet, but here is my opinion. Your flop play is fine. The BB could easily have put you on a steal and called with the plan of making a play on the flop. Also he could have called your preflop raise with something like QJ-AJ and played the flop that way.

Your main mistake in this hand is the preflop raise. The first problem I have with it is the shortstacks in the button and SB. If either comes over the top you probably have to call getting close to 2-1 on the call. Secondly, at this point in the tourney you want to be stealing from the tight mid-stacked players not from the only player at the table who can bust you.

Re: $109 tourney, T5s hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
How about checking behind on the flop. I like that for several reasons. If you bet the flop he folds stuff he misses, and he plays back with top pair or a hand that beats you. If you check behind many times he will bet out the turn no matter what hits in order to try and take it down. I would then call the turn and either call or value bet the river. In this way you get the most out of him when he has nothing and lose the least when you're crushed. The only times you might let him off is when he flops a J and the turn and or river are action killing cards. The other nice thing about this game is metagame considerations. If you check behind on the flop sometimes with good hands, you will discourage opponents from betting the turn when you check behind the flop with nothing. This situation can be very profitable because now you can check behind on the flop when your blind steals miss to avoid a possible c-raise. Then your opponent will be more likely to check the turn to you if he hasn't hit and you will be able to pick it up with even less risk.


[/ QUOTE ]

I have some problems with this line in this hand. My main problem here is your hand badly needs to be protected. I don't think bottom two pair is strong enough to slow play on the flop. There are many hands with which he could have called the preflop raise and checked the flop that have a lot of outs on this flop (J9s, QJ, KJ, AJ, KQ, 89s, low pocket pairs, etc). If you check behind and he hits an out (besides another jack hitting the board) with one of these hands you could end up losing all of your chips.

Another thing to keep in mind for metagame considerations is that the table will see that if your steal attempts hit the flop hard you will slow play it. Therefore your opponents will be more likely to check-raise bluff you on the flop or call you down with a weaker hand if you bet once checked to after raising preflop from a stealing position. You will have more trouble winning future pots when firing the second bullet after a steal attempt preflop.

Another problem I have with checking to let the BB bluff the turn is the OP stated this player in particular is not very aggressive. Also, I think the BB will check-raise bluff close to as often as he would bluff the turn had you checked behind.

Following this line can put you in a lot of bad situations with potentially tough decision for all of your chips. One example is a blank hits the turn and the BB bets. Then a J hits the river and the BB makes a large bet. Another example is the same betting from the previous example with two cards higher than J hitting the turn and river. A lot of scare cards for your hand can hit the turn and river putting you in a bad spot.

Re: $109 tourney, T5s hand
 

I agree that many times a scare card can come. I'm not worried about giving J9, KJ, or QJ a free card here, they are drawing to 5 outs (maybe a little better with backdoor straight, but still). Obviously the two hands you are worried about are KQ and 89. With position I'm willing to risk it and trust that I will make the tougher decisions as im confronted with them later in the hand. I prefer to make those decisions than let my opponent off when he has nothing, and lose when he flops huge. There is no easy solution in this hand though, and I don't think the way our hero played it was bad, im simply offering an alternative equally viable line.

Re: $109 tourney, T5s hand
 

I don't have any problem with the play on the flop. With 2 pair against a set on a JT5, rainbow flop, you are going to go broke.

The preflop raise is stupid and selfdestructive. As the 2nd chip leader at the table, why make a CO raise with junk at the chip leader's BB? If you have a hand, go ahead and raise on the chip leader's BB. However, you have alll sorts of smaller stacks to pick on. You are at a disadvantage against the chip leader as he can threaten to bust you out. Why get involved in this?

Re: $109 tourney, T5s hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
The preflop raise is stupid and selfdestructive.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I'm almost convinced now it wasn't the best spot for a garbage steal, but again - big stack wasn't a particularly aggressive player or anything, and if there's a big enough chance he simply folds or even just calls as he did, I don't think I really hate playing a hand against him with position.

In the past, very similar hands helped me to get big chunks out of other big stacks (which is sometimes easier than to get it out of smaller stacks), who overplayed their hands when I hit miracles with bizzare hands. This particular flop was very unlucky flop for me, of course, but you can hit such unlucky flops whether you hold AKs or T5s, hitting 2p against a better hand.

Re: $109 tourney, T5s hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
yes the way ahead/way behind concept. Its important. learn it, live it, love it.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't think this is one of those hands though. Jx has 9 outs on the flop and may pick up 3 more on the turn. when JT flops, there is a very good chance that villain has at least 4 outs with a gutshot, and it's a bad free draw to give, b/c if a K hits to give AQ the nuts, hero will (should) pay off with his stack.


[ QUOTE ]
If you check behind many times he will bet out the turn no matter what hits in order to try and take it down. I would then call the turn and either call or value bet the river. In this way you get the most out of him when he has nothing and lose the least when you're crushed.

[/ QUOTE ]

checking behind here and then calling bets on the turn and river makes your hand vulnerable and also leaves money on the table. villain will stack off with a J here if you let him. it's true you save some chips when villain flops a monster, but i think your hand is strong enough to cross your fingers and get the chips in.

[ QUOTE ]
The other nice thing about this game is metagame considerations. If you check behind on the flop sometimes with good hands, you will discourage opponents from betting the turn when you check behind the flop with nothing. This situation can be very profitable because now you can check behind on the flop when your blind steals miss to avoid a possible c-raise. Then your opponent will be more likely to check the turn to you if he hasn't hit and you will be able to pick it up with even less risk.


[/ QUOTE ]

i suppose that's true, but i really want to be picking up my missed steals on the flop. i don't trust the table to be paying close enough attention to (and putting so much weight on) one hand that i'm going to start checking behind a lot of my misses. checking here and showing down later will make it tougher for me to execute my prefered play of winning my misses on the flop.

Re: $109 tourney, T5s hand
 

Those are all valid points. I was not trying to claim that my line was superior to getting it all in on the flop. I was offering an alternative line that I think is equally viable. I'm not sure which line I would choose in this situation, it would depend on a lot of table factors. I would say as a general rule though, I am a lot less fearful of giving free cards than I used to be especially whn I have position.

Re: $109 tourney, T5s hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Jx has 9 outs on the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

What am I missing? I only see 5.

Re: $109 tourney, T5s hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Jx has 9 outs on the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

What am I missing? I only see 5.

[/ QUOTE ]

um, wow, i'm an idiot. i counted 3 J's and 3 mystery outs for the "other card" on the board that could pair.

should be 5 outs now and maybe 8 on the turn. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: $109 tourney, T5s hand
 

You got check raised by a solid, not extremely aggressive player. What hands could he possibly hold?

I fold to the check raise.

Re: $109 tourney, T5s hand
 

thats so wrong its disturbing. thats bubbling logic right there.

Re: $109 tourney, T5s hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
You got check raised by a solid, not extremely aggressive player. What hands could he possibly hold?


[/ QUOTE ]

He's definitely good enough to check-raise here with many hands that I beat. If you think a solid player only c/r here with sets/top 2p, I think you maybe should reconsider your idea of "solid"...

what about...
 

JJ?

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the toughts. But I just want to make sure that you do realize that there is only 1 possible combination for 55, and 1 for TT (for my opp to hold)? So obviously you won't be seeing these hands often here.

I do agree that JT is a hand I am more worried about (6 combinations), obviously.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it is odd that everyone's talking about TT/55/Jx in this thread, but no one is mentioning JJ (that I see). JJ only adds 3 more hands that would have been beating T5, but I think they need to be considered.

Perhaps you're including JJ in Jx, but that doesn't make sense to me.

Oh well, I guess it really doesn't change the play of the hand, but I just thought it was an unusual omission.

Later,
Che

Re: $109 tourney, T5s hand
 

When you rr all in you are only going to get called by hands that beat you. He's not going to 2x with you just a jack. Call the checkraise and see how he reacts to the turn. If a scare card falls and he keeps betting your beat. You shouldn't jump at the idea to get your whole stack in on the flop with bottom two pair.
I also agree that stealing here with T5s was a poor idea and you put yourself in a tough spot where it was easy for you to make a mistake. Next time just muck it,8 other players at the table you can pick on.

Re: what about...
 

[ QUOTE ]
JJ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure he can have the nuts on the flop, but I'm a little less worried about it, as there's some good chance he reraises me with JJ PF (and possibly with TT). JT and 55 are somewhat more probable here, IMO.

Re: what about...
 

[ QUOTE ]
JJ?

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the toughts. But I just want to make sure that you do realize that there is only 1 possible combination for 55, and 1 for TT (for my opp to hold)? So obviously you won't be seeing these hands often here.

I do agree that JT is a hand I am more worried about (6 combinations), obviously.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it is odd that everyone's talking about TT/55/Jx in this thread, but no one is mentioning JJ (that I see). JJ only adds 3 more hands that would have been beating T5, but I think they need to be considered.

Perhaps you're including JJ in Jx, but that doesn't make sense to me.

Oh well, I guess it really doesn't change the play of the hand, but I just thought it was an unusual omission.

Later,
Che

[/ QUOTE ]

i omitted jj because i assumed you'd get reraised preflop by jj, thus leaving it out of consideration here where there was a mere call of the raise. is this a decent assumption?

Re: what about...
 

[ QUOTE ]
i omitted jj because i assumed you'd get reraised preflop by jj, thus leaving it out of consideration here where there was a mere call of the raise. is this a decent assumption?

[/ QUOTE ]

The opponent is "a solid, not extremely aggressive, player" so is it a decent assumption? I don't know. It's player dependent, I think.

I do think it is odd that people exclude JJ because it would have been raised PF, but include TT. Hard to imagine we can firmly draw the reraising line at that exact spot.

Just food for thought...

Che

BTW I know that some said TT would "probably" be raised PF - let's don't get too nitpicky with this. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]