The one bet river bluff
 

Can anyone make this work? Here's the spot:

You check-called the flop, check called the turn. Now on the river (you have donk and you can't win a showdown), so you decide to lead bluff. This is a play I rarely make and can't seem to get it to work. I am gonna try it tonight and report back after this session.

I was hoping some of you more formidable one bet river bluffers can give me a hand or two where you made it work. It sometimes works for me in heads up sessions, but that's about it.

Re: The one bet river bluff
 

Hmm....

It's surprising how many times I take that line with TP and get the bettor to fold the river, so I have done it just a couple of times when I have missed whatever draw that I am on. It's probably worked about 1/3 of the time which is fine by me.

I have usually done it when I have defended a LP openraise and the board is raggy. In such cases the bettor isn't likely to even have an A to showdown.

Re: The one bet river bluff
 

the problem with this play is many players will raise you with nothing, just because it is an incredibly suspect play. I raise people so much here with just 2 cards and it works well more than it's share of the time. the times i shy away from raising is when an overcard to the board hits, in which case i will call or fold, depending on the likelihood my opp. is bluffing and whether i have any showdown value. But, " I am gonna try it tonight and report back after this session. " gl with that, can't wait to hear about the probable donation :P. . .

Re: The one bet river bluff
 

The one bet river bluff works much more in a check-raise scenario against a decent player. Example: 2 limpers and I raise AK from the SB, bb folds and it's three-way. The flop is 252 two tone. I bet and only a good player calls. Turn is a 3 no flush. Bet, call. River is a J no flush. I check, he bets, I raise, he thinks forever but folds. Of course the bluff you describe works against some players when you suspect overcards, but it's a dicey situation.
-James

Re: The one bet river bluff
 

"I have usually done it when I have defended a LP openraise and the board is raggy. In such cases the bettor isn't likely to even have an A to showdown."

so are you checkcalling flop draws on ragged boards against lp raisers? against some opponenets i am sure this line is fine, but i will usually cr the flop with any draw there. but the good thing about that river bet is that it's almost unbluff-raisable - you get called or you don't. . . .

Re: The one bet river bluff
 

Online it works sometimes but i would not try it really, live against the right players it works every time. Lead the river when you hit a dtaw have top pair etc, if you get to show it down you can make it work about 90% for the rest of the session. Yeah in AC there are some players that will fold everytime if you lead into them when a draw over card etc hits.
Dave

Re: The one bet river bluff
 

What about check-raising the turn and leading the river? Is that too obvious at higher limits?

Re: The one bet river bluff
 

[ QUOTE ]
The one bet river bluff works much more in a check-raise scenario against a decent player.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then it's a two bet river bluff, isn't it? Clearly a bluff check-raise is more powerful than a bluff lead bet, but I think one of his goals with this play is to minimize the cost.

Re: The one bet river bluff
 

The flop checkraise, at least in the Party 15/30 games in those situations almost always screams a draw, if there is one on the board.

The check/call, check/call, bet line often means a made hand.

So sometimes, yes if I'm planning to take that line once I see the flop, I take that line. And yes if I flop a monster I'll fastplay it as they don't believe me. For example once I had AJ in the BB or something, the flop came KQT, 2 tone and another 2+2'er (and we both knew each other) and I capped the flop and the turn. Yes, I lead the flop. Unfortunately, the flush draw that hung in there the whole time got there on the river. After the hand the 2+2'er was surprised that I played the nuts so fast. He had J9.

Re: The one bet river bluff
 

[ QUOTE ]
The flop checkraise, at least in the Party 15/30 games in those situations almost always screams a draw, if there is one on the board.

The check/call, check/call, bet line often means a made hand.

So sometimes, yes if I'm planning to take that line once I see the flop, I take that line. And yes if I flop a monster I'll fastplay it as they don't believe me. For example once I had AJ in the BB or something, the flop came KQT, 2 tone and another 2+2'er (and we both knew each other) and I capped the flop and the turn. Yes, I lead the flop. Unfortunately, the flush draw that hung in there the whole time got there on the river. After the hand the 2+2'er was surprised that I played the nuts so fast. He had J9.

[/ QUOTE ]

Barry,

I think you're getting at the paradox here, which is that it's often so profitable in the Party 15/30 to fastplay even a merely decent made hand that your opponent is going to notice that and won't trust you for having a made hand when you suddenly bet into him on the river.

Re: The one bet river bluff
 

[ QUOTE ]
You check-called the flop, check called the turn. Now on the river (you have donk and you can't win a showdown), so you decide to lead bluff

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a line I often take when I put my opponent on a very iffy hand (one he won't call a raise with) to extract an extra bet out of him because they almost always call the river.

I do find the line of smooth calling the flop and leading the turn gets alot of folds, I guess they dont like the prospect of calling 2 big bets. Most times I likely have the best hand when I bet, but I dont see why it wouldnt work as a bluff. I have used it successfully as a semi-bluff a few times where I'm pretty sure I was beat though.

Maybe I'll try a few pre-planned bluffs using this line tonight under the right circumstances.

Re: The one bet river bluff
 

the only time i used to do it live with any frequency would be if i had a straight draw and a flush showed up on the river. in general i think the thing to master is the "you know i have to bet this because i know you're checking through the river" thing. only works on chumlies too.

Re: The one bet river bluff
 

One of my friends (who plays for a living but does not post here) claims that this sequence reeks of a bluff.

IMO, the only way you'll be able to get it to work is if your opponent has seen you check-call check-call then bet out on the river with a hand like top pair.

Re: The one bet river bluff
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The one bet river bluff works much more in a check-raise scenario against a decent player.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then it's a two bet river bluff, isn't it? Clearly a bluff check-raise is more powerful than a bluff lead bet, but I think one of his goals with this play is to minimize the cost.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really, because in a lot of these scenarios you would call to pick off a possible flush draw.
-James

Re: The one bet river bluff
 

repeat after me:

no one ever believes anyone has anything ever, so no one ever folds anything ever.

the more i repeat and believe that mantra the more...well im still broke.. but damnit im pretty sure it's right..




(edit: dont repeat that second part)

Re: The one bet river bluff
 

Rarely works. The problem is that your bluff lacks credibility. If you have such a great hand, why weren't you pushing it earlier?

It can occasionally work if the river was a significant card. If the river completed some draws, and you had a different draw which it missed, you can give it a try.

But if the river was a random offsuit deuce, forget it.

F$%# it
 

Well, I'm $60 dollars poorer.

I tried and twice. I got called by JJ once and raised the other time. That was an auto-raise too [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]. I've played close to 30k hands in 3 days so I don't remember the details to well. I just thought you guys would like to know that I blew off sixty big ones. I'll dig the hands out of pokertracker tomorrow and you guys can critique my timing. I'm sure it was bad timing because my thought process was, "Oh, I've got to try a one bet river bluff, Sliiiiiiiiiiiiing!!!!!"

Re: F$%# it
 

i assumed this was going to be b&m. i think it's a pretty retarded move online.

Re: F$%# it
 

There has to be a place for this, because when I bet my flushes, they do sometimes fold.

Re: F$%# it
 

[ QUOTE ]
I've played close to 30k hands in 3 days

[/ QUOTE ]

Is that right?

Re: F$%# it
 

Something like that. It's probably like 20k or 25k. I exaggerated some. Quite a bender.

Re: F$%# it
 

This guy has suede finish on his walls, has undoubtedly made thousands in three days, and he's bitching about $60. I see while I'll never be good at this game.

-Michael

Re: F$%# it
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I've played close to 30k hands in 3 days

[/ QUOTE ]

Is that right?

[/ QUOTE ]

If it's true, it must be some kind of record. To play 10k hands in a day, you would have to 8-table for 20 hours.

Re: F$%# it
 

Dude, I owned that floor guy. Got him to crack for $300 bones.

He cracked like a hard-boiled egg hitting the pavement.

Re: F$%# it
 

[ QUOTE ]
There has to be a place for this, because when I bet my flushes, they do sometimes fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

B/c you happened to catch them with J high.

Re: The one bet river bluff
 

This hand seems relevant to the discussion. Obviously I wasn't bluffing, but if I had been, it would have worked.

PokerStars 30/60 Hold'em (4 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (3.25 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (5.25 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button folds.

Final Pot: 6.25 BB

Re: The one bet river bluff
 

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (4 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (3 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero calls, BB folds.

Turn: (2.50 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (4.50 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG folds.

Final Pot: 5.50 BB

I don\'t try this too often
 

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, CO calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (3 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, CO calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (3 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, CO calls, Hero calls.

River: (6 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB folds, CO folds.

Final Pot: 7 BB