Money, money, money...
 

Money, money, money…

Fellow 2+2ers,
I have a problem

Pretty much everyone who knows me knows I’m playing poker seriously. Very often when I talk with people I don’t speak to very often poker comes up in the conversation. I don’t mind talking _poker_ with them. It’s just that almost every time the topic of money comes up in conjunction. Most conversations about “poker” go about like this:

- So I hear you’re playing poker. Are you good?
- Yes, I’m good. I better should be since I play it every day.

- Do you make money at it?
- Yes, I better. If I didn’t I wouldn’t be playing every day.

- Well then how much do you make?
- I’m making enough to support myself and buy stuff I want. Enough to keep me satisfied.

- How much?
- I don’t want to get into specifics about numbers.

- How much? Have you made $1.000, $10.000!?
- I told you, I don’t want to get into specifics.

Then there is a short uncomfortable moment before I change the subject.

I really dislike that the topic of money has to come up so often. Before I started poker I almost never had conversations about money. Now, in one form or another, I talk about money several times a week. I’m getting really tired of it. I understand people for being curios, I know would be, but still I’m getting increasingly frustrated every time it comes to a conversation like the one above.

I’ve tried the approach of telling people how much I make too, because I don’t like to be all shady about it. When I hadn’t made very much money yet people usually just got impressed and amazed. The more money I made, the more people seemed to just become offended. So now I tell no one.

Talking money is getting really frustrating. How do you guys handle this? Is it just a normal part of adult-money-making life that I need to get used to? What is your advice on how to handle it?

I don’t want the money I’m making to affect my life in any other way then that I just have money.

Help needed, really

Re: Money, money, money...
 

Tell them you sell drugs instead. They'll stop talking.

Re: Money, money, money...
 

I have a few buddies I play with regularly and we talk poker a lot too. But with anyone else, the conversation turns into a similar one as yours. I really don't like talking about money from poker with other people either. It's uncomfortable. I don't really have a solution to the problem, I'm just saying that I can relate.

Re: Money, money, money...
 

I don't have a problem telling people how much I have made. I don't think anyone has ever been offended.

Re: Money, money, money...
 

I can also relate. My mother knows I play poker online and my girlfriend does as well. These are the worst two when it comes to talking about my money. I'm a student right now and jobless, but I have enough money to survive on for now. Whenever I say I don't have enough money for things such as eating out, movies, etc, they always bring up my poker winnings. I've tried to explain to them the concept of having enough money to account for variance, but I'm sure you can guess what they have to say about it. Anyways, I'm trying to avoid talking to anyone about how much money I make online, or even the fact I play online.

I do however talk to a few of my poker playing fraternity bros about it. But only because they're interested in getting better and don't pressure me into it or whatever. I don't tell them to brag, but merely to encourage them. IE I lost 7 deposits before I started winning and look at me now!

Re: Money, money, money...
 

So how much do you make?

Re: Money, money, money...
 

Why do all of these people know? That's your first problem. I can count on one hand the # of people who know how I pay the bills. Save yourself the trouble - most people will not understand. I get the feeling you like people asking you about it - make you feel cool. If someone presses you over and over - say you're into value investing and risk management.

Seriously though - there is no reason you should be running your mouth. And never discuss the amount of money involved.

Re: Money, money, money...
 

I'll actually try that next time. For real.

... depends who asks though.

Re: Money, money, money...
 

thanks.

Still nice to hear more people are experiencing the same thing.

Hopefully someone will bring the perfect solution, or in second best case some concepts about it.

Re: Money, money, money...
 

That's good.

I have gotten the feeling that people have reacted much less then happily when I tell them. They (like 3 people out of 5) get all serious and don't really know what to say. They seem much less than "happy" that I am making alot of money so easily. Tinder of jelousy I feel. May be in my own head though, that I am afread that they will react that way, and therefor think they do react that way. But I don't think so. Or it maybe becouse I'm acting so shady about it.

Re: Money, money, money...
 

I used to have a problem even telling people what I did for money. Id try to avoid telling people when theyd ask, by saying something very general like "I deal with statistics," or I would simply attempt to change the subject.

But people know when they are being fobbed off and they just think that either you are just being a prick, or that you are a male stripper/prostitute. (Honestly.)

Needless to say I got pretty fed up with all the awkward moments and hassle, so now I just tell people out right. Im sure people now just think I have a gambling problem, but I just dont give a sh*t. If people are asking me these sorts of questions, they are people on the fringe of my life that I am not concerned about, otherwise they'd already know the answers.

I have only been asked how much I make once, and on that occasion I had know the person for a little while and felt comfortable telling her. She was just curious and was fine after.

However, if I started to get asked a lot, I can imagine getting fed up in the same way as above and just start telling people out right. And proudly. And if im not sure about the person or suspect they do not think very highly of me I can imagine myself casually asking them how much they make from their job afterwards and see what they think about that. And if they should have a problem with me asking, I would be ready for an arguement.

For me the bottom line is: I have nothing to be embarrassed about or ashamed about. Where as before I would be intimidated and go into my shell in these situations, now Im proud about my achievements and am always ready to tell them to sort their own f*cked up life out before they comment on mine. I know they wouldnt be offended if they were making the money instead of working 10 hour shifts at the local bar or resturant or supermarket, and im not about to take any ignorant, hypocritical, jealous bullsh*t.

Having gone through that little rant though, I really didnt give people enough credit in my early days. When most people find out what I do, they are just curious about it. I still suspect many secretly think I have a gambilng problem, at least initially. But I have never encountered any negativity, so Im suprised you have.

Most people are just woefully ignorant more than anything. If they are not thinking you have a problem, they are thinking they know what you are talking about. I got asked what I do just yesterday, and when I told her she said "oh, dont think things like that suprise me, I know guys like you that play roulette. They only ever gamble on black or red, and thats how they make their living." Of course you cant say anything to this because then you really would be behaving like a prick. I just appreciate someone having an open mind.

Re: Money, money, money...
 

It's best just to stay quiet.

Funny story - I actually met a guy who is a "professional gambler" - a friend of a friend type thing. Anyway - the people were kind of talking about him in awe and mentioned he just got back from a month long trip where he made X amount of dollars. I said woooowwwww - he must be good and the topic of conversation changed. His "great month" was a good 4-5 days for me. My next thought was - how the hell do these strangers know how much this guy made last month.

Don't be that guy. Good luck.

Re: Money, money, money...
 

yeah, same thing happens to me when i hang out with my friends. someitimes they will say "are you still making money off of poker?". its annoying, because they all know that for the last year i have been making money from poker. its almost as though they expect me to start losing. i don't think they understand that winning longterm is possible.

Re: Money, money, money...
 

Why they know that I am making money playing poker?

Well, I'm dedicating pretty much 30h a week to poker related stuff. When someone asks me: "How was your weekend?" or "What are your plans for tonight?" I don't want to lie. I say I'm playing poker. So that's why people know that. And also people hear from others that I'm playing poker. Poker is becoming very popular in sweden, but so far there are few serius poker players.

Now about the money part. Of course I'm not going to hide that I'm making money. It would be worse than talking about money if people thought I spent 30h/week every week working without making any money.


[ QUOTE ]
I get the feeling you like people asking you about it - make you feel cool.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, it doesn't. I feel good knowing I am good at what I do. I feel good about being successful at what I do. It also gives me satisfaction that others know that I am successful at what I do. But I don't feel cool when they ask me how much I am making.

Re: Money, money, money...
 

Ask them how much they make at their job. In any profession except apparently gambling, that question is very rude.

Them: "How much do you make? $1000, $10,000??"

You: "How much do you make at your job?"

Them: "um, er..."

You: "exactly"

Re: Money, money, money...
 

You should not have to tell them. If they want to know how much you make you should ask them how much they make. I was always taught that people should not discuss how much money they make. It creates nothing but problems. People become jealous and feel uncomfortable when you make more and they feel like they are smart/more important than you if they make more. The best thing is to not tell. When someone ask you how much you make, you should say "Its personal." It sounds like you are too passive when not divulging information. It's like if someone ask you how far you have gone with a girl you can say "I've done alright." but then that just encourages more questions. You have to say "Thats none of your business, its personal."

I have told a few of my friends about some of my winnings, but even when I tell just one ore two it gets around my social circle. I am going to try and keep my poker winnings on the down lo from now on. I hope that helps,

Cheers,
Pots

Re: Money, money, money...
 

Your post Pots, and several of the previouses, answer my problem very well.

I'll definetly toughen up. Stop giving answers that lead to more questins. And use the "how much do you make?"-line when necissary and appropriate. All of your post is very good advice and insight into the problem.

It has been very helpful to see how other 2+2:ers handle this situation. thanks!

Re: Money, money, money...
 

- In any profession except apparently gambling, that question is very rude.

Excactly!

I'll have to show them that it's rude for gambling as well.

Re: Money, money, money...
 

Great post! Thanks for your story.

Re: Money, money, money...
 

I wouldn't mind the "how much do you make" question so much. It is the other idiot questions that get me -- like "What is the biggest amount you have ever won?" Come on, it's not the friggin' lottery. or "What is the largest amount you have ever bet?" , uh, it's called limit poker for a reason, and even in no-limit you can't bet over what you got on the table.

When questions about my gambling, and how much I make, and how much did I win, etc. come up -- I just rely on my old standby response: "Can I borrow $200 until next Tuesday?"
[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Money, money, money...
 

Maybe you can give a general answer like. . .

"in a typical week I make about as much as _________ (a good barteneder, accountant, doctor etc.), and I get to set my own schedule."

That may give them something to compare and wrap their mind around so they can leave you alone. If pressed for specifics just say, "It varies."

Joe

Re: Money, money, money...
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't have a problem telling people how much I have made. I don't think anyone has ever been offended.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't have any problem with telling other poker players how much I've made, even though it is less than most.

Something about telling other people unless its like my roomates or girlfriend or mom kinda bugs me though

Re: Money, money, money...
 

They're not offended, they're jealous.

Ask someone how much money they think is the best amount to make, to meet their needs. Someone making 30K will say 35-40K, someone making 60K will say ~70K, someone making 120K will say ~150K. Always followed by a statement such as "More than that and money starts to run your life, you become materialistic, etc, etc"

Of course they "deserve" to be making that little bit more that they answered, but if they give you the number that they would really like to make, it brings up the embarassing question of why they arent making it. Therefore, anyone making substaintially more must be a bad person.

a lot of ppl don\'t like to say what the make
 

i used to tell everyone who asked what i made, but when i started making more than almost everyone i know, i just say i do pretty well, then when ask for dollar amount, i respond not sure because i play on multiple accounts, casino, etc so hard to say exactly
oh yea i like ur last sentence i feel the same way, i don't want to say i make this $$ amount and all of a sudden make unexpected new friends or ppl look at me differently

Re: Money, money, money...
 

I guess since I've never had a "real" job, I just dont understand why people are so secrative about how much they make. It's like more personal than asking how many people you've slept with. I just dont get why. So I never have a problem telling people what I make. And its usually like the 3rd question out of their mouth when they find out I play poker.

Re: a lot of ppl don\'t like to say what the make
 

Dude, you still won't play Michael Davis HU. You're his effing prag.

Re: Money, money, money...
 

OK OK tell me already, how much do you make? LMAO

Re: Money, money, money...
 

I've gotten that question a lot from when I was a bartender to a poker player now to a bar owner. I always ask people what their salary is in response. Most people get the point...

Re: Money, money, money...
 

This is a very good post Aflaba,

Lately I have also been more revealing of my new profession. I get a lot of questions.

To those who are sincerely curious when they ask me, I am usually quite honest in my answers. If they ask how much I make, I never give an absolute value because none obviously exists. So I describe in layman's terms how variance works and what limits I play at usually to give them a rough estimate of my earnings.

To those who are trying to probe me in a more demeaning way or want to compare me as a measuring stick of somesort, then I will exagerate giving a number that is something like 3 bb/hr.

I love talking about poker provided the person is truly interested about the game enough, but talking money and only about money is a serious turn off.

For the most part, I find the people who brag about how much they win are the ones who are losing. The winners (and I know who they are) are quiet. They don't want people people to know they win, because then more players will think they are good.

Lawrence

Re: Money, money, money...
 

In person, I usually try to inject some humor, e.g., "I lost $5k this month, and $10k last month, but I'm ahead $20k for 2005."

There is no reason to tell random people the truth. They won't be happy if you are doing well, and they will laugh at you if you are doing badly.

Another approach is to give them some other information, such as the average amount a good player expects to make and the swings/length of cold streaks in a B&M $20-$40 game, even if you do nothing but play online NL.

Re: Money, money, money...
 

I get relatives asking for loans all the time. They don't realize that I actually put my poker winnings to good use. It's my real work wages that I blow on toys.

Since November, I've used poker earnings to pay all my bills, plus pay off two loans. The only "toys" I've bought with poker wages are 1.) a 50" HDTV for my parents for Christmas and 2.) a new laptop for me.

So, I have a "real" job too. I make pretty decent money and it's an easy job. I save about 1/2 of my monthly salary (trying to buy a house) and blow the rest on things such as girls, guns, guitars, bowling balls, pool cues, CDs (I buy at least one CD a week), etc.

I HAVE been accused of selling drugs though. I think it's a compliment. I'm living very well right now and some people just can't understand how I afford my lifestyle.

Also, I love it when people that I know (not friends) ask me to teach them to play poker. I tell them I'm not that good, just better than most of the chumps you see at the table. There are thousands out there better than me. Then they ask how to learn. I tell them to read a book and play thousands of hands. "Which book?" they say. "All of them; that's what I did", I say [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Money, money, money...
 

I read somewhere (Miss Manners?) the best way to counter a rude question is by saying, "Why do you ask?"

Why do these people need to know, anyway?

Do you know how much they make?

If not, I'm not sure why they need to know your income.

Re: Money, money, money...
 

The first thing I say is; "I don't say".

If they're still curious I'll tell them what the average pot size is.

Or you can tell them about how much you lost in your worst day. People like to hear that.

cheers
-flub

Re: Money, money, money...
 

Paying for music is definitely -EV. I'm dissapointed in you.

Re: Money, money, money...
 

I don't have too many people asking me directly how much I make...but the one's who know I play poker, for the most part, are going to be the one's who I wouldn't have a problem with asking me.


There are some scenarios though where i just don't want to declare that 'online-poker pro' is my occupation in the first place and I say something lame like "I work from home." or something like that.
I've struck up conversations with players at the table at B&M and the occasional 'what do you do?' comes up and I just don't like it.


I'm on my 3rd different adult-league soccer team this spring (my teams keep falling apart). It's the 3rd straight team where I haven't mentioned what I do. I just don't want to go there. We're having scrimmages and pracitces now and are pretty friendly and some of the guys have talked about their jobs. It's a good group of guys...but they're all bartenders or working in a mostly-typical office-job or something....and I don't really want the attention that 'being the guy who plays poker for a living' typically generates so I'm kind of staying quiet about it. At least for now....if I get more comfortable later and someone asks and i feel like divulging because the moon is full or something then I will.


As far as others who know what I do asking how much I make I will sometimes say straight-up...or sometimes I'll just say that I'm making significantly more than I did at my last job PLUS I get to work from my home in my underwear if I want....whenever I damn well feel like it.
Mentioning how much I enjoy getting to 'work' in something that I enjoy doing and the flexibility of schedule tends to take the emphasis off how much I make.

But usually the ones who ask how much I make are also the ones who will be generally happy for me because they also know I spent several years making less money then almost anyone out there.

Re: Money, money, money...
 

I still say there's no need to tell people and those who do are looking for some sort of attention. PEOPLE DO NOT UNDERSTAND THIS. They don't understand odds, +EV - all they think of is gambling.

Re: Money, money, money...
 

I don't play for a living, it is simply a hobby for me where I make money, rather than pay (glares at his wife's scrapbooking). That said, I have no problem telling folks how I do, and more importantly I tell them how EASY it is to make money playing poker.

I of course do this with the hopes that they will want to run home, sign up, and give me their cash.

Protip: don't do this with family

Re: Money, money, money...
 

My closer friends and family have a better understanding of this generally.

One of my friends handicaps sports on the side and is reasonably good at math. He doesn't know a thing about poker but understands the general concept that if you have a very small advantage and get to hit it over and over that you will win in the long-run (obviously many people have trouble with this concept and say things like "yeah....but how do you know you aren't going to lose?")


I think the fact that I DON'T like talking about it with strangers (the soccer players...other acquaintances I have around....etc etc) indicates I'm not just looking for attention.


Some of my closer friends and I are close enough to discuss such matters. They might be struggling to find a job or are pissed-off at grad-school and don't really know if they want to move to Miami or not...etc etc.


I used to deal blackjack at a casino prior to playing poker.
So telling my friends who are still there "well...how much do you make?' is kind of stupid since I know EXACTLY how much they are making (and it's not much).
Other dealers get asked this as well from what i've seen as dealers frequently gossip about the going toke-rate from one casino to another.


These are the type of friends who I'm not necessarily close enough to be comfortable with them asking.
But I usually just say that I'm making more than I did when I worked here. Which I guess is kind of bragging since it's kind of saying "I'm making more than you now..." but not really,
because we made so little there that it would be stupid for me to be doing it if I WASN'T making more than I did at the casino.

Same thing goes when they would see a former dealer who moved on to different casino. They would always ask "what's your hourly-rate there?" While they don't know specifics, they do know that the answer they are about to get is going to indicate that he is making 30-50% more at his new job.

Friend of mine was working at 2 casinos (he needed to stay full-time at the crap-pay casino because of the health-insurance) and showed us his first pay-check with a toke-rate significantly higher than what we were used to.

We were all happy for him. He's a good guy.
Yes, he was kind of bragging obviously...but he was pretty much coming in and saying "all that stuff you heard about the toke-rate being higher at casino-B....It's true! Plus, the management is nicer. you guys should really think of applying over there ." that type of thing.


I usually encourage my dealer-friends to learn poker, and that I would be interested in teaching them. Because dealing-poker typically makes more than dealing BJ if you're good at it....
get to keep your own tips, etc.
Plus, you get to sit-down while you're dealing.


So perhaps this topic just happens to come up more in more of my social circles so I'm okay with it in certain circumstances.

Re: Money, money, money...
 

Hey,
One suggestion if you're not a full time pro that I've gone with is simply say "I just play to supplement my income." To me this leads people to believe that it's like a part-time job, which most are familiar with and they'll usually shut up about it. Of course I'm still a low limit player so when I say it I'm telling the truth but if it gets people off your back you might want to try it.
Goo dluck
--Matt