QK limp causes trouble
 

Folding preflop has to be too tight, right? Should I raise this pre-flop? Draw heavy flop so I raise to pot-sized bet. Anyone do different? WTF is that turn bet of 15 into a 225 pot? Now 2 pair is very possible. Pos. straight on board. I have TP/2K and nut straight draw. Should I pump it again, or call closing the action? I have to call the river bet right? What do you put BB on?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (8 handed) converter

CO (t720)
Hero (t765)
SB (t560)
BB (t2895)
UTG (t750)
UTG+1 (t740)
MP1 (t710)
MP2 (t860)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls t15, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls t15, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t60) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets t15</font>, MP1 calls t15, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t75</font>, SB calls t75, BB calls t60, MP1 folds.

Turn: (t300) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets t15</font>, Hero calls t15, SB calls t15.

River: (t345) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets t100</font>, Hero calls t100, SB folds.

Final Pot: t545

Re: QK limp causes trouble
 

1. Fold PF.

2. if you don't feel like folding (which is the better play), RAISE PF.

3. Calling PF is the worst of the 3 IMO, but if you do decide to call, you cannot be satistied when the flop gives you TP.

On the flop, I would raise more or call/fold, a 75 raise is doing very little.

on the turn, I would raise for sure, a decent amount so you have a chance to take the pot right there (200 +)

given that river situation, I probably would call the 100, but with great hesitence.

The way you played the hand, BB could have anything, a 15 bet into a 225 pot generally means I am weak and I just want to see another card for cheap. Now, once in a while, it screams raise me so I can reraise you back. But the way BB played that hand, I think he might have hit his two pair on the river, it could be as crap as a 24.

F

Re: QK limp causes trouble
 

I am sorry but why would you fold KQs on the button, with only one limper to you, in the first round? You probably have the best hand here. I would raise PF to take control of the hand right away and try to get it heads up with the limper. And Yes, you have to call on the river. Your getting 4:1 odds. You'll win far more often than that imo.

Re: QK limp causes trouble
 

fold KQs on the button without a raise? Are you drunk?

Re: QK limp causes trouble
 

I've had a hard time convincing myself to raise preflop with non-ace/non-pair hands early. I realize I do probably have the best hand here. Please convince me to pull the trigger.

Re: QK limp causes trouble
 

[ QUOTE ]
fold KQs on the button without a raise? Are you drunk?

[/ QUOTE ]

No I am not drunk, and yes, I stand with my initial answer: Fold is the best move PF IMO.

Re: QK limp causes trouble
 

later in the tourney i'd juice it PF...anybody saying he should fold needs to retire from the game of poker, you've been burned far too many times to go on.

in this situation i'd probably do just as you did and limp because it is so early and i tend to play very weak tight for the first 3-5 rounds. the flop is not perfect for your hand, but i'd def raise the flop just to see where i stood, maybe even as small as a minraise, and yours is about as big as i'd go...as i said, tight passive, just wanna survive till the blinds are big enuff to steal. if he repumps on the flop i'd probably fold, if he smooth calls then i'd do as you did and smooth call this turn bet. its a fishy ass bet but you never know what's going through a fish's head when they do something like that. its not worth the risk, i want to win this pot as it stands or move on as cheap as possible.

the river just plain sucks. i'd call with my head turned away from the screen and an extreme wince on my face and laugh hysterically when i see his Q2o.

if this were later in the tourney and 6 handed i'd likely pump it to 3XBB PF and go all in on the flop.


WD

Re: QK limp causes trouble
 

[ QUOTE ]
later in the tourney i'd juice it PF...anybody saying he should fold needs to retire from the game of poker, you've been burned far too many times to go on.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree later on the touney folding is might not be the best option, but this is only 10/15 with 800 stacks.


[ QUOTE ]

in this situation i'd probably do just as you did and limp because it is so early and i tend to play very weak tight for the first 3-5 rounds.


[/ QUOTE ]

so wait a sec, are you suggesting weak tight the first few rounds is the best strategy? I agree on the tight part, but not the weak part.
now, since you are playing weak tight, what are you hoping on the flop with KQ? flush draw? straight draw? two pair? then using the same reasoning, shouldn't I be limping with Ax suited? suited connectors? suited two gappers?

[ QUOTE ]

the flop is not perfect for your hand, but i'd def raise the flop just to see where i stood, maybe even as small as a minraise, and yours is about as big as i'd go...


[/ QUOTE ]

right, because a min raise will give you so much information on where you are at...

[ QUOTE ]

as i said, tight passive, just wanna survive till the blinds are big enuff to steal. if he repumps on the flop i'd probably fold, if he smooth calls then i'd do as you did and smooth call this turn bet. its a fishy ass bet but you never know what's going through a fish's head when they do something like that. its not worth the risk, i want to win this pot as it stands or move on as cheap as possible.


[/ QUOTE ]

so why aren't you folding PF??

F

Re: QK limp causes trouble
 

if you're folding hands like this preflop, you're giving away a sizeable edge.

Results
 

Thats a big 10/4 good buddy. Over and out.

Re: QK limp causes trouble
 

I am just going to stop here. To each's own.

Re: QK limp causes trouble
 

so you got beat by a junk hand that wasnt folded on the flop purely because it's a funny junk hand to show down. I wouldnt put too much stock in re-evaluating this hand.

Re: QK limp causes trouble
 

I think folding preflop here is way too weak tight. I also think raising is worse.

I would have raised the pot ont he flop and turn. Call the river.

Re: QK limp causes trouble
 

Why not try and make a large, multiway pot pre-flop?
Aren't large, suited connectors ideal for that situation?

Re: QK limp causes trouble
 

I am sorry but why would you fold KQs on the button, with only one limper to you, in the first round?

Because it's crap?

Edit: If you are playing $33 or under, this is not a hand.

Lori

Re: QK limp causes trouble
 

i think you played this fine. you can't raise this hand preflop, but calling on the button with KQs is fine (KQo would be questionable).

the 100 river bet is way too small to fold to.

raise the turn if you like- but then you must fold to further significant aggression.

the route you took was fine.

Re: QK limp causes trouble
 

[ QUOTE ]
I am sorry but why would you fold KQs on the button, with only one limper to you, in the first round?

Because it's crap?

Edit: If you are playing $33 or under, this is not a hand.

Lori

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you.

Re: QK limp causes trouble
 

[ QUOTE ]
so wait a sec, are you suggesting weak tight the first few rounds is the best strategy?

[/ QUOTE ]
i can't speak for him, but I am.

[ QUOTE ]
since you are playing weak tight, what are you hoping on the flop with KQ? flush draw? straight draw? two pair?

[/ QUOTE ]
yes, yes and yes.

[ QUOTE ]
then using the same reasoning, shouldn't I be limping with Ax suited? suited connectors? suited two gappers?


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yes, yes, and yes (on the button)

[ QUOTE ]
so why aren't you folding PF??


[/ QUOTE ]

because I have implied odds to hit a flush, straight, or trips.

BUT: you should keep in mind that I am used to playing a structure where you start with 1500 chips. it appears that you start with 800 in this game, which makes the blinds more significant, which in turn makes folding preflop better than it would be in the game I play. but it is still fine to limp here.

heres the funny thing:
 

the funny thing is with a hand like this, is that it definitely causes controversy. BUT, it also opens up the obvious fact: the game of poker is a beautiful thing at times.

This is a hand situation (at least pre-flop) that could be argued until we are all blue in the fingers. Whether you raise or fold or call pre-flop on the button with this hand in these conditions is a matter of style, I feel. The margin of profitability lies in how you play the hand after this initial decision here. Some raise, some call for the pot odds, some hate hte hand. I think every way is fine, if that is your style-- AND you know what the hell you are doing with this hand AFTER the flop. It is true... the hand can cause trouble...but if you are savvy, and can recognize the trouble, and avoid it... I think you can find profitability in the hand. If you play it for the odds only...and hope to hit something on the flop...yeah you'll get lucky sometimes. And if you fold-- you will never get in trouble with the hand. All of these work I thyink... do what you feel is best for your style here - not others!

But learn to play it in a manner that is conducive to your style-- after the flop.
Personally... I am gonna raise pre-flop - prolly 3x or 4x to eliminate the blinds and take control of the hand. I am raising on the flop too if he bets. I feel more afraid if I just limp here.

as i grow as a player I have found that I would rather risk some chips sometimes but know where I stand. Does it backfire at times? LOL! Omg yes! But I am a winning player, and I think over the long haul- its best to know ehere you are at...

sly

Re: heres the funny thing:
 

So you have $800 in the whole world and are knowingly willing to risk it at maybe a 10% edge, even though you are almost certain that you'll get a 40-50% edge at some point later in the tournament.

I still don't understand.

Lori

Re: heres the funny thing:
 

[ QUOTE ]
So you have $800 in the whole world and are knowingly willing to risk it at maybe a 10% edge, even though you are almost certain that you'll get a 40-50% edge at some point later in the tournament.

I still don't understand.



I can see that...
Noone ever said I would go all in here. By involving myself with the pot with a raise...does not mean I am willing to risk my entire bankroll right there. When did you think I meant I felt I was pot committed with a 4x bet of 60 chips of my 800?

And again... I underscore this by saying that I rasie with the confidence that over 100 times in this saem situation I can feel my way thru the waters after the flop and take control and win the hand.

I know you are very against KQ. That is fine. I agree, it can be a trouble hand. I feel, in this situation, I can play it well enough that it will be profitable for a 60 chip raise (not an all in).

sly

Re: heres the funny thing:
 

And again... I underscore this by saying that I rasie with the confidence that over 100 times in this saem situation I can feel my way thru the waters after the flop and take control and win the hand.

I'm not saying that you won't make chip profit, I'm saying you are throwing away ROI.

Just my opinion of course.

Lori

Re: QK limp causes trouble
 

[ QUOTE ]
Edit: If you are playing $33 or under, this is not a hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

That implies that it could be a good hand in the higher limits, right?

There seem to be a good mix of posts about the higher limits either requiring better hands or allowing for worse. I guess at the higher limits they have 79o the times you fold and KK the times you call.

Re: heres the funny thing:
 

interesting point-- please explain your thought process to me in how this affects ROI% --


and by the way -- no need to feel attacked here Lorinda...I have read plenty of your posts and have great respect for you as a player and writer - just curious as to your approach...sounds very interesting...

all the love
sly

Re: heres the funny thing:
 

and by the way -- no need to feel attacked here Lorinda...I have read plenty of your posts and have great respect for you as a player and writer - just curious as to your approach...sounds very interesting...


I never feel attacked. I actually wish MORE people would argue, as I'm sure I make mistakes more often than I get pulled up.

Irieguy made the best post on the matter here

Over-simplifying, but at the lower limits you are going to get monster chances to get a whole chunk of chips.
Playing small winners is still going to be a winning strategy, but it could well turn out to be less of a winning strategy than not playing them.
In a cash game, a winning proposition is a winning proposition, but in a tournament situation you have a limited bankroll. The plan is to use that bankroll to pick up the most you feel possible from it.
At level 1, there are plenty of hands still to be dealt, and you are more likely to get a better shot with KQ than not.
To play it to it's maximum chip EV, there will be times when you will have to bust with it.

Step up to the higher limits, and suddenly those future chances are going to be few and far between, so any chances to scrape together a few chips are likely to be good for you.

I don't play the higher limits, so wouldn't like to comment on the play of KQ at those limits, but I'm sure that you have to play marginal hands more often, and better at those limits.

For what it's worth, I've checked my PT stats, and I fold/raise KQs with almost equal frequency on the button.
I'm guessing though that I haven't raised if there's a limper.

Edit: Of course that should read "A better shot _Than_ KQ"

Lori