AA in big blind
 

Live $500 max buy-in NLHE, $2/$5 blinds. I have about $750 in front of me. Game has been aggresive with 75% hands prefolp raised. I have AA in big blind. EP riases to $20, MP calls, MP+1 calls, button calls. I raise to $100 and EP calls, MP folds, MP+1 calls and button calls.

Flop is
8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

The only hand I am really worried about are 88 and 99. Maybe suited 89??

I lead out for $250, EP folds, MP+1 calls after deliberating for about 20 seconds and button folds.

Turn
4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

I check and MP+1 moves all in and has me covered. He knows that I am weak tight as I have'nt played many hands. I belive him to be a solid player has he has the most chips in front of him and have seen him play his big hands fairly fast. I think about and think about it. He knows I have AA and not KK. I am fairly certain that he has me beat so I fold.

Today I am so pissed I should just punch myself in the face. I had half my money in the pot and did not call because I was chicken.

Should I have just checked the flop?
Should I have bet the turn?

Re: AA in big blind
 

Pre-flop: Fine.
Flop: I'd check/raise here. 4 players in a raised pot. One is bound to bet their AK or QK. Then you can push your stack all-in.

Re: AA in big blind
 

Check-raising is OK here, but I don't like it so much since it's 4-way. Plus--the pot is already over $400. My guess is that MP1 has AK...I call.

Re: AA in big blind
 

I'd consider pushing here preflop, or raising to about $200 or so at the least. you might get QQ or AK to call you here, as it looks like you don't want to be called. As played, I call on the turn - just too many hands you beat especially with a weak-tight image.

If people are going to try to draw out against your hand, make em pay as you're out of position the rest of the way. It will also make your postflop play very easy.

Re: AA in big blind
 

It sounds like you're playing scared and that's no way to win in a no-limit game. You're not up against 2-pair or trip kings. If this guy lucked out and hit a set of 8's or 9's against your aces, then it's your unlucky day. If you want to make money, you can't get away from aces in this situation.

-w.a.

Re: AA in big blind
 

I believe the proper play in this position is moving all-in before the flop. This does two things:one it puts your opponent to a major decision for a lot of money and two it takes away any chance of someone having 8,9 or even a smaller pair. Get your money in the pot when you have the best of it. This is a perfect position to either steal a few bets or end up heads up for big money with the odds in your favor. Never just give people free cards unless there's a reason for it.

Re: AA in big blind
 

[ QUOTE ]
I believe the proper play in this position is moving all-in before the flop. This does two things:one it puts your opponent to a major decision for a lot of money and two it takes away any chance of someone having 8,9 or even a smaller pair. Get your money in the pot when you have the best of it. This is a perfect position to either steal a few bets or end up heads up for big money with the odds in your favor. Never just give people free cards unless there's a reason for it.

[/ QUOTE ]

you want to go all-in for 7 or 8 times the pot?

Re: AA in big blind
 

[ QUOTE ]
He knows that I am weak tight

[/ QUOTE ]NO KIDDING!

Re: AA in big blind
 

go all-in for 750 with 4 people in for $20 each?

what a waste of a premium hand...

Re: AA in big blind
 

[ QUOTE ]
I believe the proper play in this position is moving all-in before the flop. This does two things:one it puts your opponent to a major decision for a lot of money and two it takes away any chance of someone having 8,9 or even a smaller pair. Get your money in the pot when you have the best of it. This is a perfect position to either steal a few bets or end up heads up for big money with the odds in your favor. Never just give people free cards unless there's a reason for it.

[/ QUOTE ]

You "put someone to a decision" because you would like them to fold. If you were to make the ridiculous move of raising all in here it would be because you wanted your opponent and the other 8 players at the table to call you.

Re: AA in big blind
 

[ QUOTE ]


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I believe the proper play in this position is moving all-in before the flop. This does two things:one it puts your opponent to a major decision for a lot of money and two it takes away any chance of someone having 8,9 or even a smaller pair. Get your money in the pot when you have the best of it. This is a perfect position to either steal a few bets or end up heads up for big money with the odds in your favor. Never just give people free cards unless there's a reason for it.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



You "put someone to a decision" because you would like them to fold. If you were to make the ridiculous move of raising all in here it would be because you wanted your opponent and the other 8 players at the table to call you.

[/ QUOTE ]

The only hands that are going to call have you beat, maybe except A/K... but no one else raised preflop so it's unlikely that you're up against that. You were both weak and tight and he outplayed you. He pushes you on the flop, you push him back. He pushes a third time over top of you and you have to run, but when a weak tight pushes back the worst LAG's lay down hands.
Just my opinion.

Re: AA in big blind
 

First of all, I believe you would have been better off raising more preflop. The fact that you got three callers would seem to indicate this. You would rather not play AA out of position against this many players. This would have simplified the play post flop, as your flop bet would have made sure you followed through and not "chickened out" because you would have 2/3 of your stack in and not "just" 1/2. Given the situation, I would have just moved in on the turn. If he is lucky enough to outdraw your aces, take your medicine. If you are really that concerned or scared at this level, I would highly recommend stepping down in limits.

Magik

Re: AA in big blind
 

i like everything but the turn fold

Re: AA in big blind
 

I have to agree with magickid. If you make it 200 to play the hand is a lot simpler as you garentee to reduce the field. You get one caller maybe QQ or AK and you move on the flop using your negtive position. The decision is now on them to make a bad play.

Remember AA will either win a small amount or loose you a lot, its all dependent on the the other hands at the table. Just hope one of them can't lay down KK or QQ on a dry flop.

Always check the pot before you raise, as a hand like 89 suited becomes far more attractive when 2 or more people are in. Just remove yourself from the decision and put the pressure on as that is the way to beat NL.

Good Luck!

Re: AA in big blind
 

Why are we criticizing the turn fold so much?

with 4 to the flop, its highly likely for villain to hit a set.

What hands do you call a reraise cold with preflop? only pocket pairs typically for set value. I doubt villain is on AK.

I think this is a good fold.

Re: AA in big blind
 

Very well may be a semi bluff because hero showed weakness by checking the turn. The preflop raise was so small, villain may have any number of hands, had a draw on the flop, picked up a bigger draw on the turn, and now is counting on fold equity from his weak tight opponent. Hero may have been beaten, but he already had half his stack in the middle. I'm not sure what I would do in the situation though, because I would have made a much larger raise preflop and that would have avoided this situation.

Magik

Re: AA in big blind
 

This sounds like a crazy loose game (4 players for 20bb preflop??!); given that level of insanity, I disagree that opponent is only going to stick around with a set.

(Your preflop play is fine; you can't smooth call with aces with three other players, and I would expect $100 to get heads-up, possibly a splendid result like a reraise...)

All-in on the flop seems OK to me, since that's not too big an overbet. Your line is fine too, but I would bite the bullet and get all-in on the turn. If you had $1000 at the start of the hand, then I would start thinking more about folding postflop.)

Re: AA in big blind
 

It sounds to me like your real problem is your table image. If you're going to let people slap you around, you're definetly sitting at the wrong table. I'd say reraise a little more heavily there. Not quite 200. More like 150. Then, dependent on the number of heads in the pot, lead w/ a bet, or check raise all in on the flop.

Re: AA in big blind
 

it seems to me that you were asking to be bluffed on the river, i like preflop and flop play, however i think i would've pushed all in on the turn and just pay-off the 89, 88, or 99.

Re: AA in big blind
 

If I was you I would bet all in pre flop, not re-raise. Why? Because y have AA, becouse y have few players who called raise and if y bet preflop allin y are favorite anyway, so I dont find any reasons why to raise to 100 and not to allin! In case if y had 2 way preflop then its ok, but y had few callers.. Its my opinion. This guy maight had AK. And y should definetly play stronger on flop.

Re: AA in big blind
 

Wow, that's a little weird, I played an AA hand from the BB with a K98 flop yesterday too... the flop was K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], I bet the flop someone came over the top and I folded, not worth posting, but almost the same hand, AA in BB, k98...

Re: AA in big blind
 

[ QUOTE ]

Today I am so pissed I should just punch myself in the face.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like a good idea to me.

Re: AA in big blind
 

Wow, these forums get worse and worse everyday.

Re: AA in big blind
 

are we reading the same situation?

EP raised to 20 (4xBB), hero reraised to 100, 5 times villains raise.

How is that small?

Re: AA in big blind
 

It was an aggressive game, lots of raising, already a raise and callers. Reraise by Hero got three callers. I am saying the raise was not big enough to narrow the field, or give poor odds to someone with a small or medium pair who had already called the initial raise. Again, this is evidenced by the fact that he got three callers on his reraise. Expecting the initial raiser to call, the raise needs to be bigger to reduce the implied odds of those behind him. Big raise is a relative term, so I will just say Hero may have created a more favorable position for himself by making a bigger re-raise. I would much rather limit the field in this situation. Especially out of position this is a better play IMHO.

Magik

Re: AA in big blind
 

I'm not sure hero could have realized that a 5X reraise of the initial raise was not enough to get it headsup.

obviously if hero made a bigger reraise we can say that its possible he would have limited the field but its also possible it wouldn't have.

In a standard game typically 3X original raise is enough to get it headsup at least. The fact that hero went to 5x shows that he already knows the calling station nature of the table and adjusted. I'm not sure he could have known he would get called by 3 people.

Its like saying if I raise preflop for 20xBB with AA and get 3 callers, you can't exactly tell me that if I raised for 40x, I would have gotten fewer callers. There is no way to quantify it.

Re: AA in big blind
 

[ QUOTE ]
Wow, these forums get worse and worse everyday.

[/ QUOTE ]
Care to explain?

Re: AA in big blind
 

An open raise to 3xbb may get heads up, but after a raise and two callers a significant reraise is called for. Hero, if he has a good feel for the table, would likely know how much to reraise to achieve the desired result. Not knowing any more about that table, I would have raised to at least $150. You already know that several people like their hands. It's time to make them pay to play. Equating this to an open raise to 3xbb is like comparing apples to oranges.

Magik

Re: AA in big blind
 

If I was villian in this hand it would look to me that Hero has QQ, so it would not take a set for me to push ya all in there. Also, if I had a set I wouldn't just push all in when you check to me on the turn, I would bet about half your stack and try and get some value.
Villian didn't show you anything to let you know your Aces aren't good, so why check the turn? He called the flop so you were checking folding the turn? Or you call a smaller bet? Call the turn.

Re: AA in big blind
 

all right i will assume that all opponents have you covered.

there is 87 in the pot when it is hero's turn to act. if he calls the raise there is around 100 in pot and 4 people to act. thus he should make the raise to 100 for a decent pot sized raise. since there are so many callers, at least two, i would assume would call, as EP would probably call, creating a domino effect of calling. by betting only 80 more, villains have proper odds for catching a set, especially since hero's hand SCREAMS AA.

thus after reading the hand again, i would have to say raise to 150 instead of 100 preflop.

once you're in there with that hand, bet the crap out of it. if i understand correctly, you folded for 400 dollars in a 1300 dollar pot, getting 3-1. you have to be PRETTY damned sure he has 88/99 to fold there i think, and you're not in too bad shape if he has two pair. and that's also why you raise more pf to price them for their set draw for times when you have AA and they don't catch.

Re: AA in big blind
 

reread my post. nowhere did I say open raise of 3xbb.

Re: AA in big blind
 

True, but you seem to be implying that a 5xBB reraise in this situation would have the same effect as open raise to 3xBB. I am simply stating that it's not. I maintain this is too small a raise to achieve the desired effect.

Magik

Re: AA in big blind
 

please reread what I said and reread the original post.

First of all. hero reraised to 100 dollars

a reraise of 5 times the initial RAISE. a reraise of 20xBB.

apparently thats not high enough for you. Apparently you raise to 150, 30xbb routinely with AA and you automatically know that the sizable reraise of 100 is going to get you 3 callers but 150 will limit the playing field.

Please don't let the result of HERO getting 3 callers dictate your post.

If I pushed in half my stack and got the table to call, that doesn't mean pushing in my full stack will get it HU.

Re: AA in big blind
 

Sorry, didn't mean 5xBB. I would personally raise to at least $150. I want to limit the field, and am not entirely opposed to taking it down preflop. With a raise and callers, I don't want several people trying to outflop me. Again, I am just saying that there was a raise and callers, and a significant reraise is in order. I just don't feel this raise is enough in this particular situation (an EP raiser and callers). Ideally the first raiser has KK and plays back and we get it in. If someone wants to play, I want them to commit (when we have medium stacks and I have AA). I understand your point about not knowing the exact effect of the raise, but would you honestly only raise to $100 in this situation? I wouldn't.

Magik

Re: AA in big blind
 

sigh

the main reason hero should make a bigger raise is that regardless of whether hero knows if there are one, two, or three callers, any villain would be getting proper odds for a set, while also knowing that hero has AA from this "sizeable" raise. hero is also out of position on all rounds post flop. the initial blinds make no difference to hero's raise after the initial raise, even if it is 30x BB. If you think raising this much is so big, isn't it good enough to take down a 20xBB pot with a significant raise with AA than to give odds to draw against and get utterly owned?

the raise isn't the magnitude compared to the blind, the raise is based on the magnitude of the pot, the inital raise, the number of calls behind, and position. please stop the suck by assuming that a raise to 20xBB is humongous.

Re: AA in big blind
 

*shrug*....I think Hero was ahead. =\

Re: AA in big blind
 

My preflop raise to 100 would give improper odds to call with pocket pair as the pot would be laying 5½-1 assuming everyone calls.

Re: AA in big blind
 

[ QUOTE ]
My preflop raise to 100 would give improper odds to call with pocket pair as the pot would be laying 5½-1 assuming everyone calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're forgetting implied odds...

Re: AA in big blind
 

Exactly.

Magik

Re: AA in big blind
 

I understand perfectly the reasons for a reraise and implied odds to hit a set.

Please reread again. Hero did not give implied odds for a set as 100 is 1/7th his stack.

and yes the raise is based on the initial raise. typically 5 times the initial raise is more than enough.

strictly speaking EV wise, reraising to 100 and getting 3 callers is much better than reraising to 150 and getting headsup assuming you can play well postflop.

I don't want to argue this anymore. I still think a lot of you guys are using the result of HERO getting 3 callers to criticize his preflop reraise amount when faced with the same decision, you would have reraised to same amount.