AKs in the BB - Standard?
 

PF only - obviously...this is Party 25NL

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (10 handed) converter

UTG+2 ($27)
MP1 ($43)
MP2 ($14.65)
MP3 ($26.15)
CO ($12)
Button ($28.46)
SB ($43.85)
Hero ($25)
UTG ($16)
UTG+1 ($48.65)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $0.5. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
UTG calls $0.50, UTG+1 calls $0.50, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls $0.50, MP3 calls $0.50, CO (poster) checks, Button folds, SB (poster) completes, Hero checks.

Flop: ($3.50) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(7 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets $3</font>, Hero folds, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $6</font>, UTG+1 calls $6, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, SB folds.

Turn: ($18.50) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG+1 calls $9.50.

River: ($28) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Final Pot: $28

Re: AKs in the BB - Standard?
 

Nooo. Raise pre-flop. Drive out opponents. You want to narrow the field!

Re: AKs in the BB - Standard?
 

Must...

raise....

preflop!!!

Re: AKs in the BB - Standard?
 

Ok, perhaps I should explain.

Good things about this hand:
I have AKs

Bad things about this hand:
I have sh*t position.
I will hit the flop only 1/3 of the time.
I have 5 limpers so I have to raise a decent amount. Given the previous point, I'm not happy about this.
I have 5 limpers and if I raise probably 3-4 will come along at this level, meaning I can't take the pot down with a semi-bluff on the flop in most cases. Even if I could, I've already built a big pot so any semi-bluff commits a large chunk of my stack.

Still want to raise this? And if so, why?

Re: AKs in the BB - Standard?
 

Hmm...I'm not sure what I'd raise here. I think I would make it 4, however 3 would allow weaker aces into the pot. I'm not sure. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] I'd like to see what some of the other posters think.

Re: AKs in the BB - Standard?
 

I dont think position really matters here.
While position does matter, with A-Ks with a few limpers, you have to put in a raise. If you miss or are faced with a big bet on the flop, let the hand go and move on.

Very rarely do I not raise with AKs in the blinds. These rare times are when someone from early position raises and there are 3 or more callers. If I reraise Im likely to get called by at least 1 person... and at least 1 with probably have me beat.

Re: AKs in the BB - Standard?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, perhaps I should explain.

Good things about this hand:
I have AKs

Bad things about this hand:
I have sh*t position.
I will hit the flop only 1/3 of the time.
I have 5 limpers so I have to raise a decent amount. Given the previous point, I'm not happy about this.
I have 5 limpers and if I raise probably 3-4 will come along at this level, meaning I can't take the pot down with a semi-bluff on the flop in most cases. Even if I could, I've already built a big pot so any semi-bluff commits a large chunk of my stack.

Still want to raise this? And if so, why?

[/ QUOTE ]

How I learned that it may not be the best idea to blast away here. (I think you played this well.)

Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $.25 BB (8 handed) converter

Button ($11.95)
SB ($66.10)
Hero ($24.25)
UTG ($21.45)
UTG+1 ($7.40)
MP1 ($10.90)
MP2 ($24.35)
CO ($11.85)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls $0.25, UTG+1 calls $0.25, MP1 calls $0.25, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls $0.25, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $2.25</font>, UTG calls $2, UTG+1 calls $2, MP1 calls $2, CO calls $2, SB calls $2.

Flop: ($13.50) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets $8.65 (All-In)</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets $8.65 (All-In)</font>, SB calls $8.65, Hero folds, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds.

Turn: ($39.45) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players, 2 all-in)</font>

River: ($39.45) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players, 2 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: $39.45

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
SB has Jd Qs (high card, queen).
MP1 has Js Th (one pair, tens).
CO has Tc Td (three of a kind, tens).
Outcome: CO wins $39.45. </font>

Re: AKs in the BB - Standard?
 

Nothing wrong with check from the big blind with AKo. You know you're closing the action and not comitting too many chips with a DRAWING HAND. If you hit at these levels you can still get paid off by KQ, AQ, AJ and KJ and if you miss who cares, you saw the flop for free anyways. That's the line I've been taking lately from SB, BB, UTG, UTG+1, MP1, MP2 and even MP3 and it's been workign out quite well. You just have to be able to get away from the hand. As an example, I called yesterday from MP2 with AK and flopped K55. MP1 bet pot, I raised, he reraised, and I laid down. He showed his K5 and I patted myself on the back. In the long run though I think that you will save money playing AK weakly preflop from the first half of the table.

Re: AKs in the BB - Standard?
 

I know that there are some other posters who've said that checking pre-flop is good, I think that it's definitely right to raise pre-flop. Granted, you'll only hit the flop 1/3 of the time, but against other non-pair hands, you'll still be good 2/3 of the times (since they'll only hit 1/3 of the time too). I raise pre-flop, narrow the field and fire at any flop, regardless of whether or not an A or K hits.

Then again, I'm probably a huge fishy LAG.

Re: AKs in the BB - Standard?
 

I think you're missing the point that raising out of the BB stands a good chance of NOT narrowing the field. If you raise huge to guarantee that you limit the field then you are committing a lot of chips, out of position, likely to end up with A high and then what are you going to do? Push any flop? Doesn't seem like the optimal way to play AK.

Re: AKs in the BB - Standard?
 

I think this hand is very situation dependent. Raising 5 limpers from the big blind is a lot different from raising, say, the CO and the SB who completes. Or raising at a level where your raises are respected. At these levels all you're doing is building a big pot out of position with the HOPE of hitting TPTK. Doesn't sound like a great plan to me. Maybe I'm weak tight.

Re: AKs in the BB - Standard?
 

Not sure if you really meant to respond to me or not, but I agree with you 100%. And you're not weak/tight, you're smart.

Re: AKs in the BB - Standard?
 

This is how ive been playing AK in crappy position against a field. I think you played it fine. If there were fewer limpers you could raise.

Re: AKs in the BB - Standard?
 

Yes i did mean to reply to you because I was agreeing with you. Figured yours was the best post to reply to because I was elaborating on what you said. I always have trouble deciding when I'm being smart and when i'm being weak-tight [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: AKs in the BB - Standard?
 

arm yourself and raise preflop to 3 minimum

then pot the flop....

Re: AKs in the BB - Standard?
 

What do you do when SB leads into you like he did in this hand and all you have is 2 overs, a BD straight draw and a BD flush draw? Betting the pot seems a little ridiculous in this situation, especially with so many to act after you. Calling is just spewing chips. Maybe if you raise preflop you eliminate some people, but at this level most are likely to call after a limp unless you raise a ridiculous amount that puts you in a bad situation. Why not take a free card and try to hit (and that's not a rhetorical question, I really would like to hear some reasoning because I've thought about this exact situation a LOT the past few days)

Re: AKs in the BB - Standard?
 

I think that raising pre-flop to say $3 or so would considerably narrow the field, even at these levels. As for why you would bet the flop, it's because you might have the best hand at that point and don't want to give free cards to worse hands that could outdraw you. Also, you can not take a free card from early position, you can only check and get a free card. Betting, however, serves the function of picking up pots from other hands that missed the flop as well as keeping worse hands from bluffing you off the pot.

Once the SB leads into you in this hand, you have to fold as it is highly unlikely that your AK high is good, so it is safe to fold. Raising pre-flop, however, may have caused him to fold his hand.

Re: AKs in the BB - Standard?
 

Look at my hand. I raised to 2.25, not 3 granted, but I got, what, 6 callers? And no one was folding top pair there, so there is NO chance I am taking it down by betting on the flop.

Re: AKs in the BB - Standard?
 

Your hand was also .25 BB. So your 2.25 raise was actually even more substantial relative to the blind structure. Maybe I'm giving too much credit to players for being able to fold to a raise after limping, but isn't checking AKs giving up too much equity? I mean, even if you only hit your hand 1/3 of the time on the flop, if you're getting 6 callers, that's still +EV, right?

Also, I thought I said this, but you should bet AK unimproved into a narrow field. If it's down to 2 or 3 seeing the flop, there is a much greater chance that your AK is good, especially if the the flop comes bricks. If you're getting 6 to the flop, yes, I completely agree that check/folding unimproved is the right line.

I still think that you're giving up too much equity by not raising AK pre-flop though.

Re: AKs in the BB - Standard?
 

The problem is that an UTG limper is often a hand that will call a raise from the BB. Once he does, then UTG+1 says "Oh, I'm smelling implied odds, I'm gonna call, too." And then everyone is calling. And then you're in trouble. I am pretty convinced that at these stakes the best play with several limpers is to check/complete and then check/raise a hit.

Re: AKs in the BB - Standard?
 

Depending on what level "this level" is, anyone will call a raise with anything from any position. If limiting the field was really an option than a raise from BB with AK would be a good play but I just don't see it at PP25 and lower.

Re: AKs in the BB - Standard?
 

I almost always raise here with Aks or AKo - I want my money in with the best hand pre-flop and to be able to fire at the pot on the flop with the 1 or 2 callers left even if I miss. I will raise it up to $3 for sure pre-flop and would only not fire if I miss and have 3+ callers or if GT+ tells me that a good player is likely sitting on an overpair to a junk flop

Re: AKs in the BB - Standard?
 

Listen... pushing is better than checking. Raising 4x the BB + 1 BB per limper is better than pushing.

Why? YOUR HAND IS BETTER THAN EVERYONE ELSES. Forget everything else for a moment. You have the best hand. Get money in the pot.

Re: AKs in the BB - Standard?
 

What makes you think A-K is the best hand out there ? That many limpers you probably have 1 or 2 pocket pairs at least- those both have you beat. Plus, AK is NOT a hand that is easy to play in EP, even if you DO hit. Unlike a set even if you do hit with that many limpers you aren't going to be sure you are ahead if you get action. If it is even possible to lay it down. In any case you are NOT the favorite - why would you raise to get money into a pot where you are the dog- (twodimes.net)



Most people with decent, but not GREAT hands
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=730702
pokenum -h 8h 8c - 2c 2s - qd jd - as 4s - jh th - ac kc
Holdem Hi: 658008 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
8c 8h 119467 18.16 537810 81.73 731 0.11 0.182
2s 2c 84863 12.90 572414 86.99 731 0.11 0.129
Qd Jd 134110 20.38 517179 78.60 6719 1.02 0.209
As 4s 79497 12.08 572878 87.06 5633 0.86 0.125
Jh Th 104487 15.88 546802 83.10 6719 1.02 0.164
Ac Kc 123963 18.84 528412 80.30 5633 0.86 0.192


A couple of yahoos
pokenum -h 8h 8c - 7c 2s - qd jd - as 4d - jh th - ac kc
Holdem Hi: 658008 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
8c 8h 128120 19.47 529316 80.44 572 0.09 0.195
2s 7c 54074 8.22 603362 91.70 572 0.09 0.082
Qd Jd 142649 21.68 508189 77.23 7170 1.09 0.222
As 4d 54632 8.30 596653 90.68 6723 1.02 0.088
Jh Th 123121 18.71 527717 80.20 7170 1.09 0.192
Ac Kc 142091 21.59 509194 77.38 6723 1.02 0.221

As you can see, AKs is NOT the favorite in any case, and even where it is close to par it will be VERY difficult to play some of the pots, especially in a raised pot (where reading hand values can be more difficult and/or more costly).

Contrast that with AA where even if everyone calls you are 33% to win the pot (2x your investment)
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=730711
pokenum -h 8h 8c - 2c 2s - qd jd - as 4s - jh th - ac ad
Holdem Hi: 658008 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
8c 8h 103337 15.70 553963 84.19 708 0.11 0.157
2s 2c 83238 12.65 574062 87.24 708 0.11 0.127
Qd Jd 85171 12.94 566254 86.06 6583 1.00 0.134
As 4s 70407 10.70 583844 88.73 3757 0.57 0.109
Jh Th 90461 13.75 560964 85.25 6583 1.00 0.142
Ac Ad 215762 32.79 438489 66.64 3757 0.57 0.330

Re: AKs in the BB - Standard?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Listen... pushing is better than checking. Raising 4x the BB + 1 BB per limper is better than pushing.

Why? YOUR HAND IS BETTER THAN EVERYONE ELSES. Forget everything else for a moment. You have the best hand. Get money in the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Kaz how can you have 900 posts and write something like that? Say the whole table limps to you with AKs in the BB, what are you going to do raise it to $8.5? With a hand you will hit 1/3 of the time?

This is not a black and white issue and there's definitely a point where it is 100% correct to check AKs in the BB. It may or may not be 6 limpers but to suggest that you should forget all other considerations and just raise is flat out wrong.

Re: AKs in the BB - Standard?
 

If I am getting paid 5:1 when I have a 18.84% chance of winning, I will do it seven days a week and twice on Sunday. Anytime your pot equity exceeds your investment, you are MAKING $$$.

Re: AKs in the BB - Standard?
 

I would check AKs if
A) It will grossly make my opponents overplay their flopped Ace top pair.
B) I heavily read a rock for limp/reraising with AA in EP.

Not because my hand only hits 1/3rd of the time. Does this mean we should never raise it at all? So 8 people call me... and I have to check fold 2/3rds of the time. 1/3rd of the time I win a pot 8x the size of normal.


I do not understand this weak tight thinking.

Re: AKs in the BB - Standard?
 

I do not understand how someone with 900 posts can so grossly misunderstand what weak tight means.

[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: AKs in the BB - Standard?
 

What a horrible example. You made a big preflop raise when you had WAY more than your fair share of equity and got 5 callers. Why do you think that is a bad thing? So you misssed the flop this time and check/folded. Big deal. That doesn't mean you shouldn't have raised it preflop.

Re: AKs in the BB - Standard?
 

[ QUOTE ]


How I learned that it may not be the best idea to blast away here. (I think you played this well.)

Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $.25 BB (8 handed) converter

Button ($11.95)
SB ($66.10)
Hero ($24.25)
UTG ($21.45)
UTG+1 ($7.40)
MP1 ($10.90)
MP2 ($24.35)
CO ($11.85)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls $0.25, UTG+1 calls $0.25, MP1 calls $0.25, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls $0.25, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $2.25</font>, UTG calls $2, UTG+1 calls $2, MP1 calls $2, CO calls $2, SB calls $2.

Flop: ($13.50) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets $8.65 (All-In)</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets $8.65 (All-In)</font>, SB calls $8.65, Hero folds, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds.

Turn: ($39.45) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players, 2 all-in)</font>

River: ($39.45) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players, 2 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: $39.45

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
SB has Jd Qs (high card, queen).
MP1 has Js Th (one pair, tens).
CO has Tc Td (three of a kind, tens).
Outcome: CO wins $39.45. </font>

[/ QUOTE ]

If you had AA here would your raise have been a different amount?

Re: AKs in the BB - Standard?
 

Ok, this has been mentioned but i thought i would spell it out.
I think some of you HAVE weak tight ideas on how to play this.
AK will hit 1/3 of the time so if you get more than 2 callers you are making money as the 1/3rd of a time you take down the pot is more than the cost of the times you miss(+EV). The times you are up against a better hand should be more than compansated by the times you dominate (AQ ect.)
If you get just 1 caller you will likely be a favorite so that is fine as well.

If you miss then it is a judgement call wether or not to fire off a bet and is completly situation dependant- don't feel that you have to win the pot at any cost.

Also raising pre-flop will get rid of a lot of speculative hands that may get you in trouble.

Thats how i see it anyway

Re: AKs in the BB - Standard?
 

Plus you have fold equity which more than compensates for those times you're a slight dog to an underpair.

Re: AKs in the BB - Standard?
 

Ok, there is some good discussion here. We have 6 players in the pot. Meaning that average equity should be 16.66%. Given the decent but not great hand scenario, you have 18.8% equity. Therefore, a raise would be guaranteed profitable if either A) Everyone would call an all-in raise. or B) You could play perfectly after the flop.
I think that the problem is that IF you raise, Playing well after the flop becomes difficult. On any flop that you like, the other players are going to either have virtually nothing (generally bottom pair or an underpair), or they are going to have a monster. That is a recipe for disaster- I think you don't raise here because you have NEGATIVE IMPLIED ODDS, because your advantage in pot equity is marginal and you have a hand that is unlikely to flop better than top pair/top kicker. I think that most players would agree that AA is a negative implied odds hands - that is one of the reasons you play it strongly preflop and on the flop - because opponents are making a large mistake preflop and if you play it fast enough the implied odds do not make up for the times they miss. If you play AK like that, when they call preflop they are making a minor mistake at best - so they are right to take the chance if they have good implied odds.

Re: AKs in the BB - Standard?
 

Always thought it ment tight and passive. Am I wrong?

Re: AKs in the BB - Standard?
 

You do have to raise. (mind you I posted a loss yesterday where I didn't raise and might have if I did.)

1) You have to drive out the weaker hands.
2) You might take the pot right there.

Think of it another way... if you were going to bet $3 on the flop (even though you missed it), what if you had bet that same $3 preflop? You still gave up the same money, the difference is (1) you may have won the pot there, (2) you may have driven out the person who won it (who maybe had 9-J and would have folded it to a raise) (3) your flop bet could have represented an overpair.

Second- If you're not going to raise AK preflop, you sure as heck shouldn't bet it out of position when you've missed the flop completely!!! That's a 'button play', not an early position play.

Re: AKs in the BB - Standard?WORSTPLAYER
 

I don't think showing examples where it doesn't work means its the wrong play.

If I raise with pocket Kings and get beat by the person who played pocket 2s and hit his set on the river... doesn't that mean you should never raise with pocket Ks?

I have won more raising AK in the blinds then lost. I'm raising for both value (the 1/3 times I do hit) and for bluff value (which also allows me to win postflop uncontested enough to be +EV)

Re: AKs in the BB - Standard?
 

"As an example, I called yesterday from MP2 with AK and flopped K55. MP1 bet pot, I raised, he reraised, and I laid down. He showed his K5 and I patted myself on the back."

Except if you raised, more often then not, the K5 would have folded preflop.

Re: AKs in the BB - Standard?
 

"I think you're missing the point that raising out of the BB stands a good chance of NOT narrowing the field."

Where are you playing? I play at PS (either .10 or .25 BB)... You regularly see 4-9 limpers in an unraised pot. If anyone raises 3-6x the BB, half those limpers usually fold.

Re: AKs in the BB - Standard?
 

"The problem is that an UTG limper is often a hand that will call a raise from the BB." Again... not at my tables.

You have to also consider... if someone's raising into a field from the BB, a thinking player has to give them credit for a decent hand. Someone limping with A5s for 1BB will likely fold it to a 5BB bet, preflop.

Re: AKs in the BB - Standard?
 

I don't understand how one of the best drawing hands (AKs is probably the BEST drawing hand) can have negative implied odds.