All-in with KK?
 

I was playing a tourney with 6000 people on the net and it was down to about 75 people. I got dealt KK in the dealers spot. All early positions folded and I thought I'd get nothing with my KK, then two seats to the right of me someone went all-in. then the guy in between us called him. I also called...but should I have? (Hellmuth says bet the farm on kings, but do I with an all-in already called?) We all had roughly the same amount of chips. the original all in had AQ suited, the next guy had AA and I had KK...i lost. Should I have folded those cowboys?

Re: All-in with KK?
 

since it is a tournament, I probably would have folded. Two seemingly decent size stacks butting heads. You most likely have the best hand, but there's a chance that you are beat. Even if you aren't, an ace on the board will sink you too. Heads up I call because most people want action with AA, not just the blinds. Second caller in is generally the more dangerous one.

Remember it takes a better hand to call an all in than to bet all in with limited information.

Re: All-in with KK?
 

I honestly dont know how I would have done but I think that I would have folded the hand. All in on the first one and I would have called but as soon as the next in line called I would have folded, but you are right in that Helmuth said bet the farm on kings. I dont agree with using that in every situation.

MediaPA, I have several friends that live in Media Pennsylavia. I assume that your handle means the same?

Re: All-in with KK?
 

You found me out. Nice area, good restaurants.

To the original poster. in a cash game, I'm all in 99/100 times with this hand. It's a tournament, so you want to survive. The advice is good to bet the farm, but there's always exceptions. If everyone was all in, would you fold or bet the farm?

Re: All-in with KK?
 

Unless I was very close to the bubble (and maybe even then) I'd go all-in. However, I think we need lots more information.

First, were you already in the money? If not, how close to the bubble were you?

Second, how large was your stack. If, for example you're a short stack, and need to double up to survive, you must go all-in. It's the best chance you're likely to get. If you can probably survive to the bubble by post and fold, then see "Third" below.

Third, are you going to be happy finishing barely in the money, or are you trying for the big payoffs for the last few finishers. If the small profit for finishing in the top 50 or so is your goal, then I guess you can fold. Personally, I'd try for the big pot.

Final analysis. If you're up against AA, you're a big underdog. Any other hand, you're a big favorite. With several people playing, you may be less than 50/50 to win, but you're also getting pot odds to justify the call. I think you have to call, and if you see the AA -- well, that's poker.

Re: All-in with KK?
 

The stack sizes are extremely important to know at this point. If your stack sizes are around average, I'm calling every time.

What hands are these guys likely to push? Well, in late position, their hand ranges will increase even more. It could always be something like AA, KK, QQ, AK, but in late position, could even open up to hands like JJ, TT, AQ. One of these hands has you in bad shape and one (KK) is very unlikely, while AK is less likely as well. With a range of hands this wide, I'm calling.

Re: All-in with KK?
 

There's a lot to consider here, and previous posters have done a nice job of pointing some of these out. I'm going to add that it depends what stage in the tourney you're at. Early on, you get all kinds of yahoos going all in with all kinds of crazy hands. 75 out of 6000 though is probably going to indicate a better hand, since the dimwits have been pretty much weeded out by now. If this was heads up, it would be a no-brainer in any case. Having to overcall an all-in is often a different matter. You need a better hand to call, and you need an even better hand to overcall.

KC
kingcobrapoker.com

Re: All-in with KK?
 

You got what you want... a chance to get all your chips in the middle against not one, but 2 opponents. They could just as easily have QQ or JJ or AK. You're only really scared of one hand, and there's no way for you to know if they have it or not. The decision to call the all-in should take you about .000000001ms to decide.

Robbie

Re: All-in with KK?
 

You've got the 2nd best hand in poker with a chance to triple up. I say you have to go for it and hope for the best.

Re: All-in with KK?
 

Assuming reasonable stack sizes, this is a very easy call (at least). It's almost never right to fold KK preflop. You just can't be sure that your opponent has AA rather than QQ, AK, or an aggressively played 55. Many people push with JJ and TT so they won't have to play postflop when an overcard comes.

Survival is overrated. Anyone telling you to fold KK here is giving you horrible advice. While you do need a strong hand to overcall a substantial push, KK is strong enough.

Re: All-in with KK?
 

Looking at the results its easy to say yes you should have folded. The first player could have been trying to steal the blinds (even if not a push in this position is generally going to mean less than an UTG all in) and the other stack may well have any PP or even two face cards, just cos its down to 75 doesnt mean they are definatley better players. You will gwt shown AA at times here but many more times you will be shown JJ,QQ, 10,0, 99 and god knows what other crap that you are a massive favourite over.

But personally I am pushing here 100% of the time, sounds like you are in the money heres your chance to triple up and make a real go of the final table and big money.

If it was the final table and the money jumped significantly if one of these players busted out I may consider folding (even then I would be hard pressed to fold).

Re: All-in with KK?
 

i would have called. if the AA guy would have RAISED, then i would have folded

Re: All-in with KK?
 

the only time i'd even consider folding KK is if the UTG player went allin and was called by someone else in early or middle position and i was on the edge of cashing.

that being said, you're in a tourney: where is the money at? that's the most important thing: if you bust 75th and win 100$ vs holding on till 60th for 500$, it looks like a fold to me.

when i get down to the last 10% of players in a tourney, i'm not thinking "i wanna win this" i'm thingkin "maximize EV, everyone that busts makes me money, make that final table, maximize EV" i only go for a win if i am in the top 10% of the players still in.

edit: Believe it or not, i have even folded aces preflop. there were three allins ahead of me, and 11 players left in the tourney. final table cashes only. i was short stacked, and would be even had i won. i took the 65$ 9th place finish and was very satisfied to do so.

but i am no tourney expert by a long shot.


cash game? NEVER FOLD KK. if somebody has AA, well that happens.

Re: All-in with KK?
 

[ QUOTE ]
i would have called. if the AA guy would have RAISED, then i would have folded

[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, if there isn't much more money left to go in, a smooth-call indicates AA more strongly than a raise. Though you will hear plenty of incorrect statements to the contrary, AA welcomes multi-way pots.

KK is easily strong enough to call or raise despite this warning sign. People just call rather than raise with many weaker hands.

Re: All-in with KK?
 

Today I was in late position, with KK, and the seat before me went all in with 5k, and I was sitting at 10k, so I called, as I saw him make a few questionable all-in moves earlier.
He had QQ. So, the board ends up
Qxx,K,Q
DOH!
This was my first crack at a big NL tourney (PS $215).
Just thought I would share that, as it is sticking out in my head.
I also had KK beaten on the river by a flush, but that was kinda my fault.
Kinda.