JTs in family pot, faces turn C/R
 

I muck this preflop 90% of the time, but the last gazillion pots on this table were multiway and unraised; I expected the same this time and was not disappointed.



Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $2.
UTG folds, Hero calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO (poster) checks, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (7 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(7 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO folds, Button calls, SB folds, BB calls.

Turn: (6 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, Button folds, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, Hero calls, MP2 calls.

River: (12 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls, MP2 folds.

Final Pot: 14 BB


These turn check-raises are often legit, so I hesitated calling this river, especially since I wasn't closing the action. But I could not for the life of me find the fold button. The pot was sizable. Anyone else find it? How often is my hand good here?

Re: JTs in family pot, faces turn C/R
 

Fold preflop.

Re: JTs in family pot, faces turn C/R
 

I think I find the fold button when he c/r into two players. If my kicker was a bit better I call down like you. As it is fairly likely you will see the showdown, I like to fold here and see what I folded to. If it was heads up I with this ragged board I think I call down, but depends on the player.

Re: JTs in family pot, faces turn C/R
 

[ QUOTE ]
Fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

I think it looks standard pretty standard.

Re: JTs in family pot, faces turn C/R
 

If we believe joker's advice that the table is way loose passive, I think I would be limping in with JTs from any position. Normally it's a fold, yes.

Re: JTs in family pot, faces turn C/R
 

Well the pot is pretty big when it's one back to him and villain might have some weird twopair. Ofcourse he could have a set but that's life.

Re: JTs in family pot, faces turn C/R
 

If I've got two suited face cards, I need a very good reason *not* to enter an unraised pot. This is a pretty standard preflop limp. It's not going to make you a huge amount of money, but it's going to make you a little bit of money, unless the game is extremely tight/aggressive/tough.

Re: JTs in family pot, faces turn C/R
 

Any reads on BB?

If he's got some baby two pair, you've got 8 outs, if he's got two pair with the J, you've got 3 outs, if he's got a set or a straight you're dead.

The pots laying you 10:1 (I don't see MP2 folding here very often), and I think his most likely hand is two pair made with the 6. So you've got something like 6 outs on average, making you good for a call here on the turn.

When the river doesn't improve, you're getting 12:1 on a call, with the possibility of that damned overcaller.

If MP2 is the sort of player that's calling down with mid pair here, I think you call on the turn. If he's probably got a legitimate hand, you've got to chuck it on the turn. If you call the turn, you should showdown even if you don't improve.

Re: JTs in family pot, faces turn C/R
 

At Party $2/4, I limp EP here every time and usually raise LP. I suggest you review the tight preflop table in SSHE.

You're 10:1 on the immediate call but will have to call a river bet as well giving you basically 6:1 to showdown. So unless you have some specific read - fold. You're behind I'd guess 90% of the time.

Re: JTs in family pot, faces turn C/R
 

logic says to fold, but experience says to call. I'll go with experience. nice hand

Re: JTs in family pot, faces turn C/R
 

[ QUOTE ]
I muck this preflop 90% of the time,

[/ QUOTE ]

I limp with this over 90% of the time. And that's in much tougher games than the Party 2-4. The greater majority of games you'll be in you'll be able to do this.

b

Re: JTs in family pot, faces turn C/R
 

Folding JTs from EP is terrble advice, especially in a loose game.

Re: JTs in family pot, faces turn C/R
 

Here's the problem I have w/ hands like this, and maybe others can help me out. When I'm faced w/ the checkraise on the turn, I could very well have outs to improve on the river (J or T can give me best hand sometimes), and the pot is fairly large. So if I convince myself to call the turn c/r, is there anyway I can fold the river if I don't improve? At that point you think "wow, i'm getting 13:1" but how often is your hand good?

I guess my question really is should I feel obligated to call the river unimproved even if my reason for calling the turn c/r is that I have outs to improve? I always feel icky after getting c/r here.

Re: JTs in family pot, faces turn C/R
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I muck this preflop 90% of the time,

[/ QUOTE ]

I limp with this over 90% of the time. And that's in much tougher games than the Party 2-4. The greater majority of games you'll be in you'll be able to do this.

b

[/ QUOTE ]

I limp with JTs from middle and late positions, but UTG and UTG+1 on tables where it's only 3 or 4 to a flop and often with a raise (which lately seems to be a lot of Party 2/4 tables), I muck it. On the button with at least 3 limpers I raise it. In the blinds I complete/check.

I have, however, noticed myself open-limping a lot with QJs. Maybe that's a leak. But the alternatives don't seem as attractive either.

Re: JTs in family pot, faces turn C/R
 

I limp with this over 90% of the time. And that's in much tougher games than the Party 2-4. The greater majority of games you'll be in you'll be able to do this.

hooray for fearless limping.

Honestly guys, it's fun to limp hands that are profitable.

Re: sults
 

He had A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and MHIG. I wonder if I got lucky that he was the rare trickster who tries to check-raise on a semi-bluff, or if I should always make this call in this spot with this size pot. I'm leaning towards call. Especially now. But that's probably re: sults oriented.

Re: sults
 

[ QUOTE ]
He had A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and MHIG. I wonder if I got lucky that he was the rare trickster who tries to check-raise on a semi-bluff, or if I should always make this call in this spot with this size pot. I'm leaning towards call. Especially now. But that's probably re: sults oriented.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am seeing so many BS turn check/raises lately, that I am calling down everytime unless it's painfully obvious that I am beat or if I have a good read on my opponent.

Re: JTs in family pot, faces turn C/R
 

Stop folding there 90% of the time.

Re: JTs in family pot, faces turn C/R
 

[ QUOTE ]
Stop folding there 90% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I assume you're talking about preflop, and I assume it's because JTs can withstand a raise, so it doesn't matter if you open-limp because it's not a terrible hand even 3 or 4-way for 2 small bets?

Re: sults
 

Yeah that 2nd spade is always a recipe for someone to whip out the semi bluff. always.

JTs - how do you fare?
 

Curiousity killed the cat [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

OK bison guy, I usually fold JTs UTG unless the table is loose and passive.

My recent PT stats for JTs run as follows (last 29k hands)

JTs : 91 times, win 29.35%, BB/hand +0.23, VPIP 73.91%, WTSD 40%, W$SD 50%.

How do we compare? My sample size per position is too tiny to draw any conclusion whatsoever (and 91 times is small enough overall too).