20-40 AJs monster draw.
 

3 limpers to me in SB with A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. BB looks disinterested. I call.

Flop is K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. I check, le-le-le man* who plays ABC (and a little loose, little passive) bets. One player folds. Older very ABC dude calls. BB is going to fold. I check-raise, they both call.

How do you play the rest of the hand?



*Le-Le-Le man is about 40 years old and plays at Bay 101 and Garden City. He looks like a 70's porn star with curly hair, and when he gets excited he says, "Leh! Leh! Leh!" which is (according to him) the sound (in Arabic) camels make when they hump.

Re: 20-40 AJs monster draw.
 

preflop is a "raise or fold" situation. /end sarcasm

Re: 20-40 AJs monster draw.
 

[ QUOTE ]
preflop is a "raise or fold" situation. /end sarcasm

[/ QUOTE ]

-why would you ever fold this for a half bet preflop?

Re: 20-40 AJs monster draw.
 

note the sarcasm, i was mocking some of the players who are only familiar with "raise or fold" tactics. i was advising a raise as its far better than calling. obviously calling is better than folding.

Re: 20-40 AJs monster draw.
 

hi bad

check-raising the flop....i don't know. the problem with check-raising is pretty obvious. you are clearly trailing and although you have a hand that can improve to the nuts, it is still vulnerable against le-le man as you call him.

no bad, the check-raise, no, no.

you need to consider how your opponents might be inspired to believe that your check-raise on the flop means that you'll be betting out on the turn, and that's what makes it a bad move. you see, just arming them with information that indicates to them what you'll be doing on the next round, gives them, not you, the initiative, even though your first to act. now, there are sometimes certain strategic reasons for check-raising in situations similar to this one, but you need to know when not to do it, and this situation, although similar, calls for some other action. you must keep le-le man away from information. and now look;

you are being set-up for a raise. if my read on le-le is correct, he knows that he is in the lead. if he had any doubt about that, he would likely reraise you to remove that doubt. you actually may have wanted to see le-le reraise you here. it's a little better for you. but what happens? oh no! awww bad...he calls, he calls. no, no, no.


don't you dare bet into that man.


it's a good thing that you have all your outs bad. you will need each and every one of them. another very good thing is that your outs are toward the nuts. nevertheless, this holding is not as strong as it appears unto you. you must minimize your cost of improving by avoiding the turn raise, and try to remember that when you're in this situation with that man, you don't take action that will give him vital turn information. against le-le, you patiently wait until he makes a move that tells you a little about what he might do, and not the other way around. you don't have a make a move hand, you have a little bush hand. you're quietly waiting for the right moment and a queen, at which time, maybe you can bag a lion.

Re: 20-40 AJs monster draw.
 

elysium i disagree. the checkraise is solid. advocating a smooth call on this flop is terrible poker. you have 12 outs to the nuts, and ace is probably also a live card and you have 2 players. by raising this flop, you gain approx +7.50EV every time a player has merely a king. if someone has only a ten, you are up to 18 outs. im liking his hand at the moment.

Re: 20-40 AJs monster draw.
 

by raising this flop, you gain approx +7.50EV every time a player has merely a king.

What exactly do you mean by this number? Hero is gaining 7.50 what of expectation if he raises versus a King?

GoT

Re: 20-40 AJs monster draw.
 

dude, I don't think raising 4 limpers in the SB with AJs is "way" better than calling. In fact, I see them as kind of the same. My position blows, and while my hand is quite good, it's not a monster.

Re: 20-40 AJs monster draw.
 

Bet the turn. It doesn't matter what card it is. I don't think either one has a king. These guys peel one off on the flop with gutshots or bottom pair and they fold on the turn.

Re: 20-40 AJs monster draw.
 

Granted, if I you had AA/AK/AKs, it would be "way" better to raise than to call. That doesn't decrease the merits of raising AJs in this situation here though. Although your hand is not a monster and you are in poor position, your hand still plays well against several limpers.

Raise and be prepared to check-fold a lot of flops.

Re: 20-40 AJs monster draw.
 

i raise preflop. then lead out on the flop. however in answer to your question of "what you do from here", since you check raised you must lead out on the turn, if called i only bet the river if an A or spade hit.

Re: 20-40 AJs monster draw.
 

Given that you didnt raise PF and there was no other PFR, I'd lead the flop and 3-bet a raise. Then I lead the turn no matter what card comes (assuming nobody capped on the flop). River is the only time I've got a tough decision (assuming I didn't hit). I'd take the same line with a set so why not add some value AND deception to your game by playing this way with monster draws.

Re: 20-40 AJs monster draw.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think raising 4 limpers in the SB with AJs is "way" better than calling

[/ QUOTE ]

you're wrong.

raise and bet the flop with the intention of three-betting or capping.

Re: 20-40 AJs monster draw.
 

I agree with you thinkin g about it a little differently. The odds of winning by hitting your hand are about 1.1 to 1 against you but you are getting 2 to 1 for every bet you get in (on the flop). It is plus EV to keep raising on the flop till the cows come home as long as you continue to get two callers. This is without even considering the chances of hitting an Ace and having it be good or the chance of getting a pair to fold even if you don't improve.

I would probably bet out on the turn but depending on how well I knew these players would consider check-raising again if I missed the turn (and if they don't bet you get a free card).

Elysium - you're as far off on this one as I've seen you.

Re: 20-40 AJs monster draw.
 

Sorry to be worried about boring preflop stuff, but I think this is a good preflop raise in an online game, and a very good preflop raise in a live game.

Re: 20-40 AJs monster draw.
 

actually, elysium is wrong and right in my opinion.

but first. i love the preflop raise...4 limpers, gotta get the money in there, you'll win a good deal of the time and you can check fold a bunch of flops ( make that IF YOU CAN check fold a lot of the flops). i think my favorite hand i ever posted here was after 7 limpers and a sb i raised QdJd from the bb in party 15/30. very good raise.

now, i like a checkraise here. BUT i also like checking the turn a good deal of the time unimproved (i.e. almost every time) because you dont want to have to call a raise when you have many outs.

you get good odds on your money and you dont need to keep the initiative. if you are being set up for a raise on the turn the counterstrategy is simple...check.

-Barron

PS- elysium is correct that you dont want to give info away for free and get into trouble by betting the turn and river unimproved...its tricky to play correctly always in these situations. and in fact, i sometimes smooth call here depending on my opponents...but mostly i think a c-r is good here.

Re: 20-40 AJs monster draw.
 

[ QUOTE ]

dude, I don't think raising 4 limpers in the SB with AJs is "way" better than calling. In fact, I see them as kind of the same. My position blows and while my hand is quite good, it's not a monster.

[/ QUOTE ]
Even though your position blows postflop, you have good position preflop in that you act after all the limpers and get to see what they do. The fact that no one raised makes it very likely that you aren't dominated, as long as these aren't players who routinely limp with AK, AQ and big pairs. UTG, AJs might be merely "quite good" because even though it is a strong hand, it can easily be dominated. Once you know that no one (except maybe BB) is interested in raising, it improves to much closer to being a monster.

[ QUOTE ]
when he gets excited he says, "Leh! Leh! Leh!" which is (according to him) the sound (in Arabic) camels make when they hump.

[/ QUOTE ]
Camels speak Arabic?

Re: 20-40 AJs monster draw.
 

Pre-flop -- check-raise.

Flop -- check/call as you did.

Turn -- Bet any Ace that hits, check-call anything else UNLESS you hit the flush and then check-raise.

Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com

Re: 20-40 AJs monster draw.
 

So you intend to limp reraise from the SB? (Preflop checkraise)

Re: 20-40 AJs monster draw.
 

Good catch, bad typo -- I meant to simply write "raise."

Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com

Re: 20-40 AJs monster draw.
 

I just realized who you are talking about. He's not folding any K or T, ever (OK mayby a T if the flush gets there), and he's paying off your bets and raises if he has a K and you hit the nuts or the A. He also isn't super aggressive without big hands and, as you say, not very tricky, so he probably isn't trying to set you up for a turn raise (although it is possible, just very unlikely imo). That being said I probably bet out any turn because (1) the money is going in the pot anyway, (2) it will put some doubt in their mind if the flush comes so (a) you will definately get paid off if you hit that draw and (b) you might get really lucky and one of the other two might hit a flush as well allowing you to get multiple bets in on an expensive street.

If there is any significant chance that your opponent is laying in wait to pop the turn, I agree with the other posters that advocate check-calling the turn. I just don't think you have much reason to fear this guy.

I wanted to change the post to say that I would bet out any turn other than a K or J. Le-Le-Le man doesn't wear panties.

Re: 20-40 AJs monster draw.
 

I'd have called preflop and checkcalled the flop. On the turn I would have checkcalled unless I had the nuts in which case I'd either check or bet out depending on what I thought they were going to do.

Re: 20-40 AJs monster draw.
 

Haven't read any of the other posts yet, but I am wondering why the call pre-flop? Assuming you play well enough to get away from the hand if you miss it on the flop would not raising be a somewhat better play? If the BB calls the hand plays well multi-way. I think the pre-flop call, check-raise flop puts you in the position of having to make the straight to get paid as ABC will not pay off the nut flush. Ace high is not going to win this and I would discount hitting your ace as an out. ABC 1 & 2 both have something they like and are going to the river. I think you have backed yourself into the corner of having to make your hand to win so in your position I check call the turn to get to the river as cheaply as possible.

Re: 20-40 AJs monster draw.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'd have called preflop


[/ QUOTE ]

Tommy, if I could ask for further explanation, why don't you raise this preflop? Are you going for subterfuge? Or do you prefer a better holding to raise from the SB preflop? (I don't know, AQ-suited, big pair, something else above AJ-suited.)

Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com

Re: 20-40 AJs monster draw.
 

Not for all those extra bets I'm not.

Re: 20-40 AJs monster draw.
 

I'm guessing it's his love of good position and hatred of bad.

Re: 20-40 AJs monster draw.
 

when i said 7.50EV i meant in dollars. you are making $7.50 by raising the flop. you have 2 players in the hand and are at worst 50/50 to improve by the river. you are splitting a bb with whoever is ahead here. you shouldnt be concerned with getting 3 bet. if you are, you are not losing money, you are even money to make your hand by the river.

i like betting this flop moreso than checkraising, but checkraising is a much better line than checkcalling because you have tremendous EV, and are setting yourself up to take down the pot without showdown. the only valid arguement against this play that i can see is being worried about getting raised on the turn. i can understand that.

let me add some more numbers to the mix for you guys. lets assume that you checkraise the flop and both players call. your EV is +$7.50. turn is a brick and you lead. UTG raises and the other player folds. you now have to pay an extra bet to see the river then if you were to simply check-call the whole hand. your pot equity is about 1:2, so you lose $15 when you are raised. therefore, you make a total of $7.50 every time you take my line and are not raised, and lose a total of $7.50 every time you take my line and are raised. if you are raised less than 50% of the time on the turn then my line is clearly +EV. add in the fact that you have the potential to take the turn down uncontested with a bet, and the fact that your ace outs may be clean, my line starts to look pretty fundamentally profitable.