What Hand did Teddy KGB have at the end of Rounders
 

Perhaps this is a good question, perhaps not. My mother actually posed this question to me over the Christmas holiday. We were watching Rounders and after the final hand she turned to me and said "What did the bad guy have?"

I didn't really know what to say, to my embarrassment I hadn't really thought about it up until now.

As a refresher heres how the hand played out

Matt Damon (MD) and Teddy KGB, Heads up, no limit HE. Blinds 50/100. MD has KGB slightly outchipped but both are right around 30,000.

Preflop

MD (8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]) raises to 200, KGB calls

Pot 400
Flop: 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

MD checks, KGB bets 2000, MD calls

Pot 4,400
Turn: 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

MD checks, KGB bets pot 4,400, MD calls

Pot 13,200
River: A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

MD checks, KGB all in, MD calls

Okay, so we know that MD wins and goes off to test his skill in Vegas. KGB goes into his cruddy little back room to munch Oreos. What do you think KGB had?

My first thought was a set of sixes or sevens. The overbet on the flop looks wrong for that though. 2 Pair was my next guess, but going all in when the ace hits the river is terrible with 2 smaller pair as MD could have had A7 or the like.

The hand I keep coming up with for KGB to have is AA. He likes to slowplay those, as we saw in the first confrontation between him and MD...so no preflop raise from him. The overbet on the flop looks strange here, but I guess it is meant to fold a hand like 87 or 9T. Every street except for the river it seems as if he is trying to milk MD if he is ahead, but is not committing all of his chips. When the ace hits the river, the only hand that beats him is the straight.

Of course he might have had 23os and been completely on tilt...but judging by his reaction when MD shows the straight I think he had a pretty good hand that got cracked.

I will say that I hardly ever play NL. I'm mostly a limit player and don't have nearly the grasp of NL that I would like to have. Basically, I'm saying that due to my lack of experience I could be way off here. I would love to here from some of those with more experience.

So what do you think he had, and why?

Re: What Hand did Teddy KGB have at the end of Rounders
 

it doesnt matter. the poker schenes in that movie suck as they didnt do them correctly.

Re: What Hand did Teddy KGB have at the end of Rounders
 

Probally aces, considering it's a movie.

Re: What Hand did Teddy KGB have at the end of Rounders
 

ATo

Re: What Hand did Teddy KGB have at the end of Rounders
 

It's been awhile since I've seen the movie, but if Aces were featured that way in the beginning, then it's likely that they got cracked in the end... a movie (and print) technique used to "bookend" a story with a common theme.

Re: What Hand did Teddy KGB have at the end of Rounders
 

Clearly AA.

Think about the fact that KGB busted MD with this hand earlier, then think about the way the hand plays out.

Orianas points out correctly that he probably held AA as a "full circle" in the movie. Except this time, Damon prevailed and has wisened up to have what it takes.

If KGB does not account for the slowplay, this is clearly his way of playing aces.

I mean, it's not close.

Re: What Hand did Teddy KGB have at the end of Rounders
 

havent seen the movie in a year or so but im 95% sure that kgb raised pre-flop and matt called. Could be wrong. I always thought he had A10 for sure

Re: What Hand did Teddy KGB have at the end of Rounders
 

He had TT

Slow the scene down and you can see when he throws his cards.

Re: What Hand did Teddy KGB have at the end of Rounders
 

[ QUOTE ]
He had TT

Slow the scene down and you can see when he throws his cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the one true answer to this question. Its been asked many times before and this is the one that is always the answer.

Re: What Hand did Teddy KGB have at the end of Rounders
 

It harts, dozint it? Your hopes....desht. Your dreams *shhhhhhhhht* down the focking drain. And your fate is sittink right besidez you.

Re: What Hand did Teddy KGB have at the end of Rounders
 

[ QUOTE ]
it doesnt matter. the poker schenes in that movie suck as they didnt do them correctly.

[/ QUOTE ]
Correctly? Define correctly.

Honestly, if Rounders filmed it's poker sequences to only appeal to hardcore poker players, nobody would go see it.

I thought they were well done, considering the audience.

Re: What Hand did Teddy KGB have at the end of Rounders
 

this is not correct. the cards you see up in the air when it is slowed down are the board cards, not KGB's hole cards.

Re: What Hand did Teddy KGB have at the end of Rounders
 

KGB does say, before pushing the river, "That ace could not have helped you." The only way he could _know_ that was if he had two aces himself.

Re: What Hand did Teddy KGB have at the end of Rounders
 

All your dreams . . . *kerplop*

Re: What Hand did Teddy KGB have at the end of Rounders
 

He had Three Kings...
IN his hand..

Re: What Hand did Teddy KGB have at the end of Rounders
 

KGB was bluffing.

Re: What Hand did Teddy KGB have at the end of Rounders
 

That hand was foreshadowed earlier in the Chan/Seidel hand.

In both hands, Chan/Damon flop the nut straight and check the turn to indicate they were still drawing.

So the point is just that Teddy KGB thought he was ahead in the hand when he wasn't and Chan/Damon trapped them by checking on the turn.

In the Chan/Seidel hand, Seidel moved all-in on the turn to defend against the draw out.

In the movie, KGB bets the pot to make Damon overpay to draw to 1 card.

when the blank hits, KGB moves in.

Net net, I think KGB had top pair or a set: AT TT 77 or 66 -- doesn't matter which.

Re: What Hand did Teddy KGB have at the end of Rounders
 

[ QUOTE ]
In the Chan/Seidel hand, Seidel moved all-in on the turn to defend against the draw out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seidel moved all-in on the river.

Re: What Hand did Teddy KGB have at the end of Rounders
 

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop

MD (8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]) raises to 200, KGB calls

Pot 400
Flop: 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

MD checks, KGB bets 2000, MD calls

Pot 4,400
Turn: 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

MD checks, KGB bets pot 4,400, MD calls

Pot 13,200
River: A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

MD checks, KGB all in, MD calls



[/ QUOTE ]

The question that I have always wondered about is: what did KGB think Mike had? He asks something to the effect of: "You're on a draw, Mike?". What hand would be an appropriate draw with that flop? It was a rainbow, so there is no flush draw. The only possibility is 4-5... and I just can't imagine a player of the supposed caliber of Mike drawing on the low side in no limit. It'd be too easy to make the straight and still get beat.

Of course, thinking about things like this means that I majorly need to get a life.

Re: What Hand did Teddy KGB have at the end of Rounders
 

Funny I just had this discussion with my wife. I think he had Ace Ten. He flopped top pair top kicker and read Damon for the draw. When the blank hit on fourth he still thought he had the best hand. Then when the ace hit on fifth he made top two pair. He put all the money in on this street because no other straight card hit. What were the chances of floppin a straight? He thought. I dont think he had a pair because he probably would have reraised pre flop. If he did have pocket aces his slowplay preflop would be idiotic. and with the board scary to the possible straight he would have wanted to get rid of damon instead of just betting in increments. Thats my reasoning [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Re: What Hand did Teddy KGB have at the end of Rounders
 

If he did have pocket aces his slowplay preflop would be idiotic.

KGB trapped Mike by slowplaying AA in the first scene of the movie. That said, I don't think it was AA. I agree that AT makes the most sense, because with TT I think KGB slowplays the flop or induces a bluff with a check on the river.

Re: What Hand did Teddy KGB have at the end of Rounders
 

OK, so I put Rounders on Slo-mo trying to find the hole cards. Lo and behold, the hole cards never leave the felt. He spikes the deck, not his hand.

That said, I'd put him on AT.

Its not AA because that was already addressed in the oreo tell. It wasn't the hand that was coming full circle, but MIkes use of the Oreo tell, that was the story.

Re: What Hand did Teddy KGB have at the end of Rounders
 

No no no

The oreo tell was on a board of A35 or something to that extent. Damon had two pair, but thanks to the Oreo tell he "knew" that Teddy had the straight.

CN

Re: What Hand did Teddy KGB have at the end of Rounders
 

Exaclty, the oreo tell is not AA, it his 'nuts' tell. AA just happened to be the hand that we first see it with. The story is about recognizing the tell and making use of it, to show Mikes maturity as a poker player.

Its now official, we're poker geeks, arguing over Rounders.

Re: What Hand did Teddy KGB have at the end of Rounders
 

yeah, you guys keep this going, I am going to go have sex. WITH A REAL WOOOOOOMAN!

Re: What Hand did Teddy KGB have at the end of Rounders
 

Yeah, but shes 52 and the mother of 4 and is stuck with ya.

Re: What Hand did Teddy KGB have at the end of Rounders
 

All of you guys that are saying he had AT are wrong. He says at the end of the hand "the ace couldn't have helped you". How can KGB know this for certain unless he himself holds AA?

That said, it's a stupid movie, and I have my suspicions that the writers never even bothered to think of a specific hand that Teddy would have in the last scene.

Re: What Hand did Teddy KGB have at the end of Rounders
 

His argument was that Mad was drawing and the ace did not complete a draw.

Re: What Hand did Teddy KGB have at the end of Rounders
 

I just don't know what KGB could have put McDermott on. "Are you on a draw, Mike?" Sure, when he checked, but when he calls the bet so out of line compared to the size of the pot??? A player of Mike's caliber, calling a huge overbet with either the gutshot, or the low end of an outside straight? Doesn't add up.

And the chick in that movie isn't even that hot. I want my $5.50 rental fee back.

best of "luck".

[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="green"> "3 Card" Monte Green </font> [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: What Hand did Teddy KGB have at the end of Rounders
 

I think AA makes sense - Teddy's trying to make Mike think that Teddy thinks he's on a draw - so Mike will call with a worse hand, thinking that Teddy thinks any pair will win. Teddy can't really think that Mike's on a draw - I don't think so, anyway. It only makes sense if Teddy has a very strong hand - and Aces, maybe Kings, makes sense.

On another note...
 

was Teddy going to kill Mike if he had lost? It sure seemed that way to me. Of course, this makes little sense - why wouldn't he just make Mike play poker for him to pay him off. But I always assumed from the way everyone was talking that Mike would be killed if he couldn't pay them.

If that's the case, is there a worse tell in the world than Mike saying, "if I don't call, I won't be able to live with myself tomorrow"? I mean, talking about tomorrow when you will be dead if you lose seems to me a dead give away that you have the nuts.

Re: On another note...
 

What I always wanted to know was, why did Mike need more than $30K to go to vegas and play in the WSOPME anyway?

Re: What Hand did Teddy KGB have at the end of Rounders
 

WTF are you talking about? Famke Janssen is the stone-cold nuts. She also played Jean Grey in the X-Men movies.

Re: On another note...
 

Gotta have some scratch to play in the Bellagio $80 game.

Re: What Hand did Teddy KGB have at the end of Rounders
 

This is definately a copy of Chan/Seidel '88 WSOP. Chan flops the nut straight, with Seidel on top pair with a weak kicker. Chan checks the flop and the blank on the turn sees Seidel move all in. Given KGB puts Mike on a draw the A on the river doesn't faze him. KGB has 10x and is convinced Mike has missed his draw so he feels his 10's are good

Re: What Hand did Teddy KGB have at the end of Rounders
 

The other hand that Mike could have held that would put him on a draw was also 8-5, not only 4-5. Either way it is not to the nuts but a straight to the 10 is better than a straight to the 8. Just thought I would point that out. If I had to guess I would say A10 for KGB.

Re: What Hand did Teddy KGB have at the end of Rounders
 

True but they did have others at the table. Heads up I would think Teddy would probably want the money in preflop. Teddy didnt even think about a reraise wich makes me think he didnt have AA even more. [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Re: What Hand did Teddy KGB have at the end of Rounders
 

This sure has a lot to do with poker theory.

-Diplomat

Re: What Hand did Teddy KGB have at the end of Rounders
 

This has been discussed on this board many times. If you go frame-by-frame, you can see KGB has TT.

Re: What Hand did Teddy KGB have at the end of Rounders
 

How?

In my copy, his hole cards never leave the table!