200 from 200 then 200 at 200
 

I'm going to write down 200 lessons I learn from watching $200 SNGs. Then I'm going to play 200 of them. I am currently playing the $30's.

Re: 200 from 200 then 200 at 200
 

I'll give you your first 2, which you likely already know;

#1 Play ultra tight first 2 levels.

#2 Call almost any raise from a single player allin giving you 2-1 pot odds if less than 1/3rd of your stack with any 2 cards.

1: Bet enough
 

Level 2. Stacks are all ~T1000.
Two players in unraised pot

Flop comes J plus rags

First guy min bets (he had middle pair).
Second guy raises 3X his bet (he had A J ).
First guy calls.

Another blank on the turn, but it First guy pairs again and now has the best hand. He checks, TPTK goes all-in, and he calls and wins.

There are a lot of things to learn from this.
First, what what the purpose of TPTK's raise?
Was it to fold middle-pair, or to get more money in the pot?

If he was trying to fold him, he should have bet more. The stacks are still big and 3BB is not enough to fold middle pair.

If he was trying to get more money in the pot, it worked. But then he wants to fold him and goes all-in.

Darn, I have some more questions now about why he didn't raise his A J in the first place. He may have been in middle or early position.

Re: 200 from 200 then 200 at 200
 

What is so significant about the magical 2 to 1 odds.
I've noticed on the WPT, Mike Sexton will always say,
"I tell you Vince, he's getting 2 to 1 for a call, I don't
see how he cannot call it", even if the guy has junk!

Re: 200 from 200 then 200 at 200
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm going to write down 200 lessons I learn from watching $200 SNGs. Then I'm going to play 200 of them. I am currently playing the $30's.

[/ QUOTE ]

sounds like a plan. good luck.

Re: 200 from 200 then 200 at 200
 

Because with 2 to 1 pot odds, any rag hand has 1/3 of a chance to win the pot (depending on the other hand, but the few times it's down more than that is made up for the other vast majority of the time that it isn't down near that much).

2: Momentum following winning an all-in
 

Level 3. Allin Guy comes over the top of a 3x BB raise, and folds the raiser. He's now in second place and in middle position. Next hand he raises 4x BB and folds the table.

Big stack + obvious aggression = people are more likely to fold.

3: Do-or-Die
 

Level 4 (50/100), 8 players.
Blinds have ~T800-1000 after posting.
Button has T558.

Button goes all-in!
I love this. I think I would do it with any 2.

Reasoning is this: whether you win the pot or not is not just your cards. It's also your stack. If you are ahead on the flop, you need to have enough T$ to fold people. If not, you are in bad shape.

If this guy plays at any time there will be T200 in the pot if he is lucky enough to get a heads-up. Otherwise there will be more in the pot and he won't be able to push anyone off.

The best thing to do is just push now against two random hands. He is making them risk a little more than half their stack if they call.

Re: 2: Momentum following winning an all-in
 

You are in trouble if you are finding 200 things to learn, and this is #2, since:

-> at least your explanation of what you mean is unclear
-> it is most likely true that using this as strategy will lose you money

winning an all in preflop, without seeing a flop, does not make people more likely to fold to your next raise on the next hand.

citanul

Re: 2: Momentum following winning an all-in
 

You didn't mention the other two important points:
(1) He has a big stack
(2) It's early in the tournament.
So now I'm thinking this guy is an aggressive player, having putting it all on the line early on, and he has a lot of T$ to work with. I think there are some hands I would fold now to his raise, that I might play to someone elses raise.

The "immediately following the all-in" means that everyone just saw what happened and comes to the same conclusion about what kind of player he is.

Re: 2: Momentum following winning an all-in
 

[ QUOTE ]
winning an all in preflop, without seeing a flop, does not make people more likely to fold to your next raise on the next hand.

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]

So I agree with your statement but it is not the same as what I said.

Beware of too many lessons
 

As somebody who spends as much time teaching poker as playing it, I would caution you about your goal of learning 200 lessons.

2 lessons, well applied, are more likely to have a positive impact on your game than the mental quagmire created by attempting to assimilate 200 lessons.

Also, there are not 200 worthwhile lessons to be learned. I would say that a perfect, non-exploitable strategy for SNG poker could be described in 10 well-written sentences.

Irieguy

Re: Beware of too many lessons
 

Quagmire. First Vietnam, then Iraq, now this.

Re: 200 from 200 then 200 at 200
 

Why not just steadily move up the levels from $33-$55-$109-$215 and do a bit of advance scouting for the next level up. You will learn while playing and figure out the playing styles. I just don't why you feel you need to jump from $33 to $215.

Re: 200 from 200 then 200 at 200
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm going to write down 200 lessons I learn from watching $200 SNGs. Then I'm going to play 200 of them. I am currently playing the $30's.

[/ QUOTE ]

i have found that articles written about what not to do are much more important than articles about what to do. if poker profit comes from your opponents mistakes, it stands to reason that by eliminating your own mistakes, you eliminate your opponents profit. I think it would be very helpful if you chose to focus on common mistakes that not only you but many of your opponents make.

thanks
johnny

Re: Beware of too many lessons
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would caution you about your goal of learning 200 lessons. 2 lessons, well applied, are more likely to have a positive impact on your game than the mental quagmire created by attempting to assimilate 200 lessons.

Also, there are not 200 worthwhile lessons to be learned. I would say that a perfect, non-exploitable strategy for SNG poker could be described in 10 well-written sentences.

Irieguy

[/ QUOTE ]

Seriously, thanks for your comment. Let me explain a little better about why I am doing this.

First I believe poker is an art, but also that good play is based on a small number of principles. The only way to really learn the principles is to practice by playing, but also by watching. The 200 lessons are not the principles, but illustrations of the principles.

Re: 200 from 200 then 200 at 200
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why not just steadily move up the levels from $33-$55-$109-$215 and do a bit of advance scouting for the next level up. You will learn while playing and figure out the playing styles. I just don't why you feel you need to jump from $33 to $215.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have the bankroll for the $215 but not the confidence. I think after this study I will be confident enough to play. I want to see where I stand. After the 200 SNGs, I will decide what to play next. I am sure after it's over I will be a better player. I am also sure I will learn faster this way than continuing my grind which started in April '04. I will be paying for an accelerated education.

Re: 200 from 200 then 200 at 200
 

[ QUOTE ]


i have found that articles written about what not to do are much more important than articles about what to do. if poker profit comes from your opponents mistakes, it stands to reason that by eliminating your own mistakes, you eliminate your opponents profit. I think it would be very helpful if you chose to focus on common mistakes that not only you but many of your opponents make.

thanks
johnny

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point. I think in Lesson 1 the mistake was the guy changed his mind about how he wanted to play mid-hand. If he wanted to play AJos agressively on Level 2 he should have raised. He limps in and gets top pair. He played the flop passively too since the absolute value of his raise was not enough to knock anyone out that had anything. So obviously the other guy has something when he calls the raise. Then all the sudden Mr. AJos decides to be super aggressive, with TPTK, on Level 2. If he wanted to play it this way then he should have raised it to begin with.

Re: 200 from 200 then 200 at 200
 

[ QUOTE ]
Because with 2 to 1 pot odds, any rag hand has 1/3 of a chance to win the pot (depending on the other hand, but the few times it's down more than that is made up for the other vast majority of the time that it isn't down near that much).

[/ QUOTE ]

Umm, pot odds don't affect the chance that a hand will win.

4: Bending over not advised
 

Level 2, ten players, stacks all ~T1000.
UTG raises to 90.
MP calls. Rest of the table folds.

Flop: T T 6

UTG bets half the pot, MP min raises, UTG calls.

Turn: Q

UTG checks, MP checks.

River: 8

UTG check, MP bets half the pot, UTG calls.

UTG turns over K K but
MP wins with 8 8.

I think the paired T's on the flop scared UTG, but he
didn't want to fold those kings. He said, well, I'll just
try and stay in this hand. In the end, he let one too many cards come out.

I'll bet MP thought he had the best hand all the way through. He may have called if UTG pushed on the flop. But definitely, after not betting the turn, UTG should have folded the river. He wasn't trying for a check raise otherwise he would have done so on the river.

Re: 4: Bending over not advised
 

TP, are you in school?

Re: 200 from 200 then 200 at 200
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm going to write down 200 lessons I learn from watching $200 SNGs. Then I'm going to play 200 of them. I am currently playing the $30's.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jumping from $33 to $215 would be a terrible mistake. Are you really planning on that?

eastbay

Re: 4: Bending over not advised
 

[ QUOTE ]
Level 2, ten players, stacks all ~T1000.
UTG raises to 90.
MP calls. Rest of the table folds.

Flop: T T 6

UTG bets half the pot, MP min raises, UTG calls.


[/ QUOTE ]

I post this same exact freaking hand in this forum (with reversed position and a low buyin, but close enough) and half of you are saying to fold AA.

THIS is why that's, like, the worst fold ever.

Two answers in one
 

I'm in the school of the $200 SNG! I'm getting ready to pay my 30 buy-ins of (un-scared) tuition money.

Eastbay: since I think I understand at least some of what is going on and what the players are trying to do, it's not a mistake. On the other hand, I might not understand what is really going on. That's why i'm posting instead of scribbling in a notebook.

Re: Two answers in one
 

So are you in school? I ask cause I know someone with the nickname Texas Pete.

Re: Two answers in one
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm in the school of the $200 SNG! I'm getting ready to pay my 30 buy-ins of (un-scared) tuition money.

Eastbay: since I think I understand at least some of what is going on and what the players are trying to do, it's not a mistake. On the other hand, I might not understand what is really going on. That's why i'm posting instead of scribbling in a notebook.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't pay to learn, I charge. That seems like a better deal to me.

eastbay

Re: 4: Bending over not advised
 

I agree, at this level AT, KT, etc, are not going to cold-call an UTG raise on level 2. Hell, I don't even do that at the 30's.

5: Not betting enough
 

Level 1, 10 players, stacks haven't changed much.
UTG+1 limps, followed by MP, and the blinds.

Pot T60
Flop K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Blinds check
UTG+1 Bets 45
MP Raises to 90
Table folds to UTG+1 who calls

Pot T 240
Turn brings 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

UTG+1 checks
MP bets 70
UTG+1 calls

Pot T380
River J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG+1 bets 150
MP calls

UTG Turns over A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
MP Wins with K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

I think UTG+1 played this horribly, like there was
no real plan behind his bets.
First I would try to build the pot on the flop. I
would min bet or check here, to keep people in.

Second, if he's going to bluff at this pot, the turn
was the time to do it, when the board paired. That would
give MP something else to worry about besides the flush
draw. I think a big bet here would have folded MP. However, the question is, do you really want to play that way this early?

Then again on the river, UTG+1 must realize that bet will not fold MP, and UTG+1 has nothing to showdown with. A proper bluff at the pot requires a huge bet here.

6: Early Aggression
 

First hand of Level 2, 10 Players, all stacks ~T1000.

UTG comes in with 175.
UTG+2 re-raises all-in.
Table folds to UTG who calls.

UTG had 99
UTG+2 had AQos

Re: 6: Early Aggression
 

Hey Pete,

First off, lemme say that at the rate you are going, if you just move up limits when your br allows, you'll probably be up to the 200s by the time you hit "lesson" 200. So all those hatas that said not to do anything crazy for br reasons, can stfu.

Second, I've been "following" your "lessons" for a while now, and really have been struck by some "what the [censored] is he thinking?" moments. What is lesson 6 here supposed to be? This hand you're quoting is abolutely not the norm at all for the $215s. Not the original raise, not the reraise, and not the call.

Perhaps along with your little trite cropped up hands, you could post what you're thinking more than "early aggression." Then maybe your posts would be helpful or something. Or perhaps people could help you. You never know.

Good luck and all, but at the moment, this stuff seems mightilly retarded.

citanul

Re: 6: Early Aggression
 

[ QUOTE ]
What is lesson 6 here supposed to be? This hand you're quoting is abolutely not the norm at all for the $215s. Not the original raise, not the reraise, and not the call.

Perhaps along with your little trite cropped up hands, you could post what you're thinking more than "early aggression." citanul

[/ QUOTE ]

I was also thinking "hmm, let's see what folks have to say about this." Plus, "I'll bet AQos thought there was no way in hell he was going to get called." And finally, "Probably, 99 thought that AQos thought there was no way in hell he was going to get called."

Re: 6: Early Aggression
 

You have a long, long way to go.

The guy with 99 thought "Hey, I'm a tool! I raise too much at early levels out of position with medium pairs!"

The AQ guy thought, (unless he had very specific notes on the other player) "Hey, I'm a tool! I reraise all in with AQo out of position with another player already having entered the pot with a raise! He couldn't possibly have AK, KK, QQ, or AA, nor could anyone behind me, those hands don't exist! I'm All In! Man, that's just as fun as it looks like it is to say on TV!"

Then the 99 guy thought "I'm a tool, but 99 is the 6th best hand in holdem, right? (I'm not saying it is, but this is how people will justify this, same as saying 33 is the 12th best hand in holdem, which they do.) And hell, There's no way he could have a bigger pair! Those don't exist! Why? 99 is the nuts, that's why! Booyah! I'm All In! Man, that's just as fun as it looks to say on TV!"

I'm betting my ad lib of their thought processes is closer to what actually happened in these players' brains than yours.

Give the actual 200s players some credit. And make sure that you know who the idiots are, when you come across them.

The play in this hand was nothing like what the norm for play of that hand would have been in a 200.

citanul

Re: 6: Early Aggression
 

Neither of those players thought that they were stupid.

Re: 6: Early Aggression
 

Also, what would you raise to 175 UTG with on Level 1, and would you call if MP went all-in with that hand?

Re: 6: Early Aggression
 

I agree with citanul. Plus, you can't learn how to play the 200's by randomly picking hands as lessons. The 200's contain a bunch of poor players, otherwise they wouldn't be worth playing. If, as here, you aren't able to distinguish the poor players from the good ones, then the "lessons" you try to take away will often be wrong.

In answer to your question, there is no hand I would raise to 175 UTG. If I was away from the table and someone else raised to 175 for me, then I would call that reraise with AA, KK, QQ, AK.

Re: 6: Early Aggression
 

Hey, you know you write REAL FUNNY monologues! I'd love to see some more from your pen (computer, whatever). Pretty much ROFLMAO, and that goes for my wife as well. Thank you.

Best,

McMelchior (Johan) [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: 6: Early Aggression
 

There's a lot of straw-house-blowing down going on here.

Re: 6: Early Aggression
 

[ QUOTE ]
Also, what would you raise to 175 UTG with on Level 1, and would you call if MP went all-in with that hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll handle this one.

NOTHING!!

If I was forced to pick a hand to raise to 175 with every time I got it in Level 1, it'd either be AK or QQ. I would certainly be a lot better than the hands those two were playing.

Re: 200 from 200 then 200 at 200
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Because with 2 to 1 pot odds, any rag hand has 1/3 of a chance to win the pot (depending on the other hand, but the few times it's down more than that is made up for the other vast majority of the time that it isn't down near that much).

[/ QUOTE ]

Umm, pot odds don't affect the chance that a hand will win.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty sure he meant that most rag hands will have a 1/3rd chance to win a hand pre-flop, and with 2:1 odds it's about an even money prospect. He didn't mean that the 2:1 pot odds makes the hand win 1/3rd of the time.

But in most cases, that's true. Unless you're dominated, overs against unders comes in around 65/35 to 60/40, which is better than 2:1 odds

Re: 6: Early Aggression
 

[ QUOTE ]
Neither of those players thought that they were stupid.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's some sort of Catch 22 going on here, and it may not just be with the 2 players involved with the hand that you posted.

citanul