Cashing out after Whoring
 

I received a phone call from PP when I cashed out after getting bonus money. They wanted to know why I was cashing out so quickly, almost like they were not going to give me my money. I was transferred to several different people, very intimidating, and cashed out all but $100. Couple of days later I cashed it all out.
Question: Would it have made a difference if I was using Neteller? I like the whole idea of building a bank roll, but I almost feel guilty about it. Or that I am doing something wrong.
Any help on this is greatly appreciated

Re: Cashing out after Whoring
 

Hi Mike,

Thanks for the story. Seriously, the people who you were talking to are outsourced specialists whose job it is to keep your money inside Party Poker. They are probably commissioned based upon their ratio. It's not uncommon. You should have seen what I had to go through to close out my Compuserve account (this outsourced company happened to be in India - but it doesn't matter where they are located).

Intimidation is part of their training as is stubborn refusal and switching between departments hoping that you give up. These are tried and proven tactics. Ultimately, they should give your money back. I can't say they have to because each of these companies are based off-shore so theoretically, if you wanted to take legal action, it would be very difficult for you. However, they do have their reputation and they would not want to take a chance at this point - so they reluctantly as possible give up the money.

So, basically, you did nothing wrong other than you exercised your rights under the terms of conditions. There are specialists on the other end of the cord whose job it is to reverse your decision in any way possible. C'est business.

Cya,
Rich

Re: Cashing out after Whoring
 

I would tell them you're going to try Paradise or PokerStars and they'd probably give you some sort of bonus on the spot to keep your money with them.

Re: Cashing out after Whoring
 

Has anyone else had a similar problem, or any difficulties cashing out from sites?

I'd especially want to know from posters who followed Homer's bankroll builder, since there seems to be a good deal of depositing/withdrawing. I'm planning to attempt it myself in the next month or so. I've gotten calls from poker sites only to confirm the account's information when first depositing, never when withdrawing. Will they catch on or more importantly, will they care?

Re: Cashing out after Whoring
 

Hi,

I haven't tried any of these bonuses yet, but I went through the mathematics and time requirements, and decided to pass on the whole thing. I can do better packing bags at my grocery store (not sure it would be as much fun though). I've set my main priority on learning slowly at the levels that I can handle and enjoy (Paradise, for example, wants me to start at the .25/.50 level, and play, what amounts to over 400 hands to earn my bonus), and for me, I really don't need any of it. To go through Homer's model, I would probably have to give up all of my family and friends for a year. I'm too old for that. :-)

I like Paradise, but will politely pass on the bonus. When I am ready to deposit, I will start on the _no-rake_, no stress, micro tables, and work my self up, assuming I ever get beyond micros (maybe I am a terrible poker player - I don't know). I am also going to play a bit a PokerStars just for variety and observe the differences.

My recommendation, is to make sure you understand all of your commitments - i.e. monetary, time, etc., before you start Homer's tour, and don't forget you will be dealing with organizations that will use all types of tactics to get your money and keep it there. (I really don't want any gambling house calling me up at my home - especially if online gambling is illegal where I live.) They are all off-shore and can and will do pretty much what they want. I've noticed people who complain about their treatment being caller "whiners", so you are pretty much on your own. Start with the most well established ones, and ones that you understand well before yout proceed to far.

Homer's tour is interesting, but I think the full commitment needs to be thoroughly fleshed out so that newbies can understand it better. I am sure that the old-timers know exactly what they are doing and modify it based upon their experiences and knowledge. Also, remember, that there may be people on these forums (there are lots of forums on the Web) recommending things, and who knows who they represent, so always do your own homework. It will probably save you lots of problems in the long run.

My .02 for what it is worth.

Rich

Re: Cashing out after Whoring
 

You can believe the sky is falling like Rich, or just visit this thread.

Oh and by the way Rich, at some sites you get paid £5/table hour you play. At the current currency exchange rate that means you get paid at least $10/hour to play poker. Couple that with multiple tables and you can make $50 around a hour. I don't know where you live, but grocery baggers don't get paid $10/hour.

Re: Cashing out after Whoring
 

I would make just about $10/hour for bagging - a bit more if I upgraded to a cashier (I'm including benefits of, course). I think, though, I would make a bit less jamming hamburgers into cartons for McDonald's. Not sure how well I would do begging. I could always wear a sign: "Please help my family. Lost my money whoring." [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Seriously, it is not the "amount of bonuses", but the amount of money that you make at the end that counts. And when I factor in the rakes, the blinds, and the fact that I am a "fish" (that is the word that you guys use to describe me, isn't it?), my guess is that at the end, I will be making negative payback - at least at these higher limits at this time in my poker life. So, for the time being, if I am looking to have fun, I will play at the micro limits with no rake, and if I am looking to make money, I will bag at the grocers.

Rich [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Re: Cashing out after Whoring
 

The least you can do if you do not plan on clearing a bonus (and it doesn't expire) is to deposit the money, then cash out everything but what your comfortable with. That way you can slowly work off the bonus if you ever get around to it.

Re: Cashing out after Whoring
 

[ QUOTE ]
Seriously, it is not the "amount of bonuses", but the amount of money that you make at the end that counts.

[/ QUOTE ]

You know, the amount of bonuses contributes to what you make. For a newbie, these amounts can make up the substantial portion of your winnings.

But I know you don't want to hear anything about how online poker is at all profitable, so I digress.

[ QUOTE ]
and the fact that I am a "fish" (that is the word that you guys use to describe me, isn't it?)

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.


*NOTE TO OTHER BEGINNERS*
Don't listen to rich.

Re: Cashing out after Whoring
 

Thanks Angry, So the bottom line is DON'T WORRY ABOUT THE PHONE CALLS, right? Just keep on whoring.

IMO if Rich took the time to played cards like he takes the time to write he would be pretty good.

Re: Cashing out after Whoring
 

[ QUOTE ]
So the bottom line is DON'T WORRY ABOUT THE PHONE CALLS, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't. They never actually tried to keep your money from you. It's not likely that you will receive these types of calls very often.

The only places you have to worry (a little) about are online casinos. As in, you are exploiting a bonus and playing BJ or video poker. Sometimes certain casinos get a little antsy about players clearing bonuses and cashing out too quickly.

But I've never heard about many problems with poker rooms. The biggest cashout problems you are likely to face will come from sites on the Prima network. Eventually (randomly), they will want you to submit ID and all sorts of other things to get your money. It doesn't happen to everyone, but it does happen.


Still, that has nothing to do with the bonuses. If you do play on Prima, once you have submitted the requested information one time, you will never have to submit it again.

In short, don't worry much about poker rooms calling you. Often times it's just a security check and you have absolutely nothing to fear.

[ QUOTE ]
Would it have made a difference if I was using Neteller?

[/ QUOTE ]

Possibly. Neteller cashouts are usually pretty smooth.

[ QUOTE ]
I like the whole idea of building a bank roll, but I almost feel guilty about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

You shouldn't. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: Cashing out after Whoring
 

Bonuses are designed to:

1) Generate cash float for casinos
2) Induce a newbie (a fish) to play more rounds (which increases the rakes and blinds for newbies).

There is zero evidence that it increases winnings for newbies.

Rich

Re: Cashing out after Whoring
 

What something is designed for and actually used for are two completely different things.

As long as you are a break even or marginally losing player, bonuses will earn you money.

Let's assume standard Pbonus, $100 with 700 raked hand (approximately 1,000 played hands) requirement.

If you play .5/1, you need to be <font color="red">-10BB/100</font> to break even after the bonus. Do you know how bad you have to be to be -10BB/100?

Re: Cashing out after Whoring
 

[ QUOTE ]
What something is designed for and actually used for are two completely different things.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly.

Re: Cashing out after Whoring
 

[ QUOTE ]
There is zero evidence that it increases winnings for newbies

[/ QUOTE ]

Please stop saying things like this. You obviously don't know what you're talking about.

There is plenty of "evidence" which supports bonuses increasing winnings for newbies.

It's called math. Maybe you have heard of it?
Would you be willing to show us the math for your theories? Because we have plenty of it to back up ours.

I'm tired of you coming in here and making these bold statements without actually having any clue of what you are talking about. How about you stop trying to prove everyone else wrong, and listen to people who are obviously more knowledgable and experienced than you?

No. You wont do that.

Even if your statements are wrong (in painfully obvious ways), you have to be right.

NOTE-
You say you are here to learn. But all I have seen you do is flat out refuse to listen to anyone with more experience than yourself if you happen to disagree with them.

That's not learning.
It's being ignorant, close-minded, and condescending.

EDIT-
Here is a thread to check out if you are interested in actually learning something:

Homer's Thread

Re: Cashing out after Whoring
 

[ QUOTE ]
2) Induce a newbie (a fish) to play more rounds (which increases the rakes and blinds for newbies).
There is zero evidence that it increases winnings for newbies.

[/ QUOTE ]

rich,

did you forget all the analysis I posted about bonus structures being able to overcome either the rake and/or blind loss at low limits? that analysis that you said you understood and thanked me for providing you when responding back to the threads they pertained to?

you yourself asked if one could fold every hand and still make a profit using the bonus, and I gave you mathematical proof that it was possible...BUT you'd still make even MORE money using the bonus as a boost to actual solid play in real money games.

getting paid 10-20 cents per raked hand in bonus when the minimum required rake is only 25 cents and you are on average only impacted by actual rake loss on 1 out of every 10 hands that you win...it is virtually impossible to NOT make money on a net basis regardless of the BB/100 skill level of your actual play.

I will admit that I am still playing at a loss between 1 and 2 BB's/100 so far at the $1/2 limit level, but party poker pays me back 3.5-5.0 BB's/100 back in bonus...is that not evidence to you?

I heartedly suggest that you not contribute to the "cashout out after whoring" thread until you have actually cashed out from a whore to begin with.

Re: Cashing out after Whoring
 

[ QUOTE ]
I heartedly suggest that you not contribute to the "cashout out after whoring" thread until you have actually cashed out from a whore to begin with.

[/ QUOTE ]

What a novel idea. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: Cashing out after Whoring
 

Of course bonuses help new players, take me for example.

Brand new player, never played hold em in my life before a couple weeks ago. (Played a few SnG but never any limit ring games). I couldn't even beat the micro limits with my free $10 at Royal.

So I read WLLH, ITM and now SSH, signed up at Empire, got Pokertracker, got my 20% deposit bonus, went down 80BB ($80 in my first 600 hands. (Told you I was that bad)
Would have probably quit poker but alas, with my bonus I actually made a little money even playing that bad.

Cleared the bonus, then did the 20% deposit bonus, started asking questions in the micro forum, studied SSH and found out I was playing not to lose money, PF raise was like 2%.

Then started playing properly, playing to win, not to not lose and magically my -$80 turned into +$50 in a couple days not even including my 20% bonus. So the bonus gave me a chance to learn how to play basically for free. Now I am playing much more confident and would not feel out of my league playing .5/1 without any bonus. But why do that when I have 5 skins to hit for the same 20% bonus while I further learn the game. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Re: Cashing out after Whoring
 

[ QUOTE ]
There is zero evidence that it increases winnings for newbies.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's say I deposit $100 and get a $20 bonus.

This $20 has either increased my winnings or decreased my losses. Period.

Re: Cashing out after Whoring
 

[ QUOTE ]
There is zero evidence that it increases winnings for newbies.

[/ QUOTE ]

I started out with $10 free from RV, all I ever deposited was $20, as that was the min deposit to cash out from RV. From April to July I cashed in more than $2,500 in bonuses, while being a break even 0.5/1-1/2 player the entire time. In July I got SSH and started taking an axe to these games. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

The crypto room bonuses comes out to $10 per hour per table. I got comfortable 4-tabling pretty early. You make $40 an hour packing groceries?

The more dedicated bonus whores made well over $10,000 in bonuses in 2004, as discussed in several threads on the Internet Forum.

It's up to you to take advantage of the $750+ in recurring bonuses handed out each month. It's free cash on top of any poker winnings.

Re: Cashing out after Whoring
 

RV? What site is that

Re: Cashing out after Whoring
 

[ QUOTE ]
RV? What site is that

[/ QUOTE ]

Royal Vegas. It's a Prima site.

I got a few bonses there recently. Prima has some extremely good games. I experienced no problems with the cashouts (two).
Other people have had to produce their DL and various other forms of ID.

Still, those are some very good games.

Re: Cashing out after Whoring
 

Ramashiva is going to be intimidating? bleh

Blackjack

Re: Cashing out after Whoring
 

Coupons are designed to make people spend money. You can consider that a win or a loss - it is a matter of perspective. If an "incentive" at the end results in a "net loss", then the person does not have "winnings" he has "losses". Period. Please none of this "politically correct talk". Sometimes the people on this board sound like they are employed by the casinos in the way they "phrase" their advice.

Bonuses are basically a wash (as I discovered after playersare did his calcualations for me) - they are there to induce play. A "fish" like myself will just end up losing money - so I pass. The "fisherman" will make money off of people like me, had I chosen to play. No thanks, I rather give my money to the people in Indonesia. And that is the way the game is played. Different strokes for different folks. I'm the turtle. I'll be around long after everyone else has run out of steam chasing bonuses.

Rich

Re: Cashing out after Whoring
 

Rich--

If you indeed will "just end up losing money" by attempting to clear these bonuses, you must truly be a horrific poker player--the loss rate you'd have to incur is huge. Obviously I could care less about your decision not to pursue these bonuses, but try to be realistic about this...I really doubt you're that bad.

Re: Cashing out after Whoring
 

Hi GMan42,

I tried out the .25/.50, to see what it was like, and I got slaughtered. I was not surprised. I played my game, and it is not good enough yet.

There are two categories that make money: 1) players who know what they are doing and have been playing for a long time and 2) the casinos (they are like the brokers in the stock market game - they make money no matter what). And there is the category that lose money. These are everyone who loses because the casinos and the players who know what they are doing, are making money. It is a zero sum game. So when it comes to advice, I hope the "advisors" remember that there is such thing as losing money.

As Lee Jones says in his book - there are people who don't mind losing money and can afford to lose lots of money. And Jones thinks there is nothing wrong with that. On the otherhand, I am not one of those people. I rather win at the level I should be playing than lose money while playing at levels that are beyond my capabilities. Has anyone on this forum ever met someone who has lost money at higher levels? Well that's who I am right now. But who knows what things will be like in a year or two for now? Time will tell.

Rich

Re: Cashing out after Whoring
 

I see you didn't bother to take our advice.

Please don't comment on this thread until you have actually cashed out or received a bonus.

You are still giving out opinions and advice which have absolutely no basis.
Wait for experience. It's really a useful thing.

Re: Cashing out after Whoring
 

[ QUOTE ]
It is a zero sum game. So when it comes to advice, I hope the "advisors" remember that there is such thing as losing money.


[/ QUOTE ]

Cash game poker is not a zero sum game. If it were, the games would have dried up eons ago. As long as the losing players can go into their pockets, the game is on.

A specific tournament is a zero sum game, but I doubt that's what you're referring to.

Regards,

T

Re: Cashing out after Whoring
 

[ QUOTE ]
Please none of this "politically correct talk". Sometimes the people on this board sound like they are employed by the casinos in the way they "phrase" their advice.


[/ QUOTE ]

Well this is just crap, Rich. What, specifically, are you referring to? Because we suggest people take advantage of free money, we're shilling for casinos? Nonsense.

A winning player has a significant edge when playing for bonuses. Playing poker is about exploiting edges - sometimes the exploit goes wrong and you lose. But, in the long run, you will benefit from having those edges.

However, if you are a losing player you will lose. That's what losing players do. Bonus or not, they lose.

Sheesh, Rich, would you have us tell people not to take advantage of bonuses? If done correctly, money can be made using them.

Regards,

T

Re: Cashing out after Whoring
 

Rich, did you even read my post above? I am a pure beginner to hold'em and I managed to clear the Empire bonuses with a little profit on top of the bonus. I simply am trying to follow SSH and just doing that is enough to make $$ in small stakes.

Re: Cashing out after Whoring
 

[ QUOTE ]
Rich, did you even read my post above? I am a pure beginner to hold'em and I managed to clear the Empire bonuses with a little profit on top of the bonus. I simply am trying to follow SSH and just doing that is enough to make $$ in small stakes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Rich only selectively reads posters that agree with him.

Re: Cashing out after Whoring
 

[ QUOTE ]
There is zero evidence that it increases winnings for newbies.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, I started playing online the end of September. Started on PokerStars 0.05/0.10, moved to Paradise 0.10/0.20 and then to Party (Party/Empire/PokerNow) mainly 0.50/1. I've played a little $1/$2 and some $2/$4.

In actual winnings from play, I'm up about $300.
From bonuses I've earned $600.

If I had played a little worse and just broke even, I would still be ahead the $600 in bonuses. If I had played a whole lot worse and lost $300 from my play, I would still be ahead $300 because of the bonuses.

Given that on most sites, you clear the bonuses just by being dealt in on a raked hand, you could play on those sites, always check/fold from the BB, fold from every other position and probably still make money.

For example, say you are playing on Party at $0.50/$1. You deposit $500 for a 20% reload bonus. So you have a $100 bonus that you need to play 500 hands to clear. For a full table, you will pay $0.75 each round for your small/big blinds. Let say that 5 of every 10 hands gets raked to qualify. Then 100 times around the table would get you your 500 raked hands. 100 * $0.75 is $75. $100 bonus less $75 in blinds is $25.

Heck, just check auto-fold and walk away ;-)

Now sure, sometimes there won't be 10 people at the table and sometimes there might be fewer than 5 in 10 raked hands -- but hey, sometimes there will be more.

Dave

Re: Cashing out after Whoring
 

[ QUOTE ]
It is a zero sum game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really true. The money changing hands among the players adds up to zero, but rake and bonuses both have an effect. And a typical deposit/reload bonus will pay out way more than a low-limit player will contribute in rake over the # of hands it takes to clear it.