easy does it
 

Three players limped (L1, L2, L3). I was on the button with JJ. I raised, the blinds folded, and the limpers called. The pot was four-handed with me last.

The flop was 10-8-8 twotone. L1 checked, L2 checked, and L3 bet. I put L3 on a ten, an eight, or a draw. I called, L1 folded, and L2 called. Three players.

The turn was a five. L2 checked and L3 bet. I put L3 on a ten or an eight. I called, and L2 called. I put L2 on a draw. Still three of us.

The river was a queen. L2 checked, so I put him on a miss. L3 checked, so I put him on a ten. I bet, L2 folded, and L3 called.

Re: easy does it
 

I think you have to find a flop or safe turn raise here. I've been reading most of your posts; do you ever pop a flop or turn raise in? It doesn't seem as though you do. IMO you need to protect your hand from KJ, A9 or whatever gross peel L1 and L2 may make. Also, in most games I play in the bet out means a T or underpair, an 8 would likely go for a checkraise at some point.

Re: easy does it
 

I wouldn't like it so much if it was 10-7-7, or 10-9-9 but here you are either pretty far ahead or really far behind. Plus it might strike the fear of TA into these people.

Re: easy does it
 

"The turn was a five. L2 checked and L3 bet. I put L3 on a ten or an eight. I called, and L2 called. I put L2 on a draw. Still three of us."

If you put him on a ten or an eight then not raising here at the very least was awful since you can fold to a threebet and would either give yourself a lot more safe cards on the river when L2 folds or charge him an extra bet to draw. Plus you're getting called on the river by a T anyways. You earned a lot less than you should have here.

-Michael

Re: easy does it
 

Two bad things can happen if you raise the turn:

(1) L3 folds his 10 rather than paying you off on the river

(2) L3 three bets with less than trips and you decide to fold. There is no way I'd fold to a three bet here, so I think calling is the right approach.

Re: easy does it
 

Another advantage to just calling is that it may induce bluffs.

Re: easy does it
 

IMO you need to protect your hand from KJ, A9
I don't think you want to protect your hand against someone drawing to 3 outs. If they want to call, that's fine.

Re: easy does it
 

You're not afraid of overs hitting?

Another terrible play.
 

Not raising the flop, thereby giving the folks with overcards the right odds to call and catch, is poor poker. Nothing unusual. Just consistent poor advice and weak play.

Nice to see that there are those out there who are intentionally giving poor advice, keeping down the overall level of talent. Much appreciated.

TSP

Yep, it will induce bluffs.
 

Like, when a K hits on the turn, and one of the early fellows, who would have folded to two cold on the flop, bets into you. Congratulations on inducing this nice bluff. If it were me that bet when the K came, please go ahead and call my bluff.

c'mon, guys, this is Romper Room stuff. I think that 2+2 is supposed to demonstrate a slightly higher level of poker prowess.

TSP

Re: Yep, it will induce bluffs.
 

Is the purpose of your post to throw barbs, or to provoke mature discussion of the merits?

Re: easy does it
 

Played perfectly. Some will never get it.
Ni Han Tommy.

Re: Another terrible play.
 

Agreed.

on a flop of T72r this play is incorrect. It's even worse with the T88. Any 8 will check-raise with you immediately to his left. His holding is insecure (a T probably) and he wants you to knock out the field with a raise. Moreover, L1 or L2 might have bet out an 8, making it even less likely you're behind here.

Re: Yep, it will induce bluffs.
 

The latter. I am trying to demonstrate how incorrect this thinking is by using colorful language and an example people will understand.

Believe me, inducing bluffs with two cards to come with a hand very susceptible to overcards is an extremely poor (i.e., expensive) strategy.

Your lucky a fellow like me is here to tell it the way it is, even if the 2+2 in-crowd is ocassionally offended. Small price to pay, IMO.

TSP

Re: easy does it
 

I like it a lot. You made 4 big bets without ever taking the chance of being bluff raised. If you raise the flop you will lose L2 and would probably miss a river bet when the Queen hit and it is checked to you. It is important to realize that Flop agression is a conservative play. In these situations it is best used to slow or stop action. You got a ton of action with a hand that was very hard to draw out on. What would you have done if either player proceeded to check raise the river, call I presume?

The more I think about it, you made the most you could while losing the least if you were beaten. I also think the river bet was a little frisky, no?

Re: easy does it
 

Wouldn´t you want to protect your hand from the other two when L3 puts in bet number 10 ?

Re: easy does it
 

[ QUOTE ]
Three players limped (L1, L2, L3). I was on the button with JJ. I raised, the blinds folded, and the limpers called. The pot was four-handed with me last.

The flop was 10-8-8 twotone. L1 checked, L2 checked, and L3 bet. I put L3 on a ten, an eight, or a draw. I called, L1 folded, and L2 called. Three players.

The turn was a five. L2 checked and L3 bet. I put L3 on a ten or an eight. I called, and L2 called. I put L2 on a draw. Still three of us.

The river was a queen. L2 checked, so I put him on a miss. L3 checked, so I put him on a ten. I bet, L2 folded, and L3 called.



[/ QUOTE ]

I guess I'll make this simple. I'd raise the flop for obvious reasons, but since you choose to pretty much always wait til the turn to see where you're at, I'll just accept it and move on.

On the turn, you put the first guy on a draw, and the second guy on a ten or an eight. So, this one is easy. You raise. You can let the first guy call with his J9 or QJ or 97 or 67 if he wants, or fold it if he wants. If he calls, all the better. The next guy isn't going to three-bet you without an eight. You know it, I know it. So just sneak a raise in there. You will make two more bets when you are ahead and lose the same when you are behind. Will you explain why there is any good reason to not raise the turn, besides laziness? I don't buy the "I don't want to open myself up to a bluff" line, because you are better than someone who would irrationally fear something like that.
-James

Re: easy does it
 

Sure, Tommy made the most he could in this particular spot by not raising the flop but that does not make calling the correct play. You would be singing a different tune if some other cards came on the turn and river.

The flop bet came from Tommy's immediate right when he was the PFR. Usually, that means "no trip 8's". Tommy has two guys left to act behind him. When Tommy just calls, those guys are likely to also put the bettor on a Ten and peel one off. Even if they only have 3 outers, that's 6 outs together plus whatever outs the bettor may have. Therefore, this is an easy (and must) raise for Tommy. There are already 10 plus small bets in the pot. This is not the time to think about inducing bluffs on later streets by merely calling on the flop with a vulnerable-ass hand.

I find it odd that you think that the river bet is risky. IMO, Tommy played that street perfectly. I really don't think he played the flop optimally though as explained above.

Re: easy does it
 

[ QUOTE ]
I like it a lot. You made 4 big bets without ever taking the chance of being bluff raised. If you raise the flop you will lose L2 and would probably miss a river bet when the Queen hit and it is checked to you. It is important to realize that Flop agression is a conservative play. In these situations it is best used to slow or stop action. You got a ton of action with a hand that was very hard to draw out on. What would you have done if either player proceeded to check raise the river, call I presume?

The more I think about it, you made the most you could while losing the least if you were beaten. I also think the river bet was a little frisky, no?

[/ QUOTE ]

With all due respect, I think you're way off base here. First, (chronoligcally, not in terms of importance), you for some reason think that being raised on a bluff would be a bad thing. I'd welcome it with my JJ, 'cause I ain't folding them to a single raise. Second and third (the two are related), you for some other unexplained reason seem to think that a raise would drop L2 and that Tommy's JJ is "very hard to draw out on." If L2 is on a decent flush draw then he's got at least one overcard to Tommy's JJ, which gives him ELEVEN outs. If L1 has a T and an overcard to Tommy's JJ, then that's another five outs. Make no mistake, Tommy's hand is very vulnerable.

Overall, I don't think the hand is as bad as some of the other stuff Tommy's posted lately, but I think that Tommy's reads were right: L1 had a T and L2 had a draw -- neither of which is at all likely to fold to a raise with this reasonably big pot -- and in that situation raising either the flop or the turn is the far better play.

Re: easy does it
 

bingo

Re: Another terrible play.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Not raising the flop, thereby giving the folks with overcards the right odds to call and catch, is poor poker. Nothing unusual. Just consistent poor advice and weak play.

Nice to see that there are those out there who are intentionally giving poor advice, keeping down the overall level of talent. Much appreciated.

TSP

[/ QUOTE ]

you keep on pointing out that tommy gives out poor advice, but i've never seen tommy suggest anyone play like he plays or see him give bad advice when looking at other peoples' hands.

Re: Another terrible play.
 

[ QUOTE ]

you keep on pointing out that tommy gives out poor advice, but i've never seen tommy suggest anyone play like he plays or see him give bad advice when looking at other peoples' hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point

Re: Another terrible play.
 

you keep on pointing out that tommy gives out poor advice, but i've never seen tommy suggest anyone play like he plays or see him give bad advice when looking at other peoples' hands.

nevermind that tommy only posts hands that he knows will get people chatting. what he doesnt post are the 99% of the hands he probably plays by the book.

Re: easy does it
 

[ QUOTE ]
"The turn was a five. L2 checked and L3 bet. I put L3 on a ten or an eight. I called, and L2 called. I put L2 on a draw. Still three of us."

If you put him on a ten or an eight then not raising here at the very least was awful since you can fold to a threebet and would either give yourself a lot more safe cards on the river when L2 folds or charge him an extra bet to draw. Plus you're getting called on the river by a T anyways. You earned a lot less than you should have here.

-Michael

[/ QUOTE ]

Can't JT or T9 confidently 3-bet the pfr on the turn knowing Tommy's got overs and poor position in this hand. If Tommy raises to protect, he might lose his customer and be drawing to 1 or 2 outs against the 8.

I don't see how you can protect your hand against a multi-draw board like this where you are going to hate more than half the deck AND you are possibly behind. Any overcard, any middle (straightish or boat-building) card, any flush card. Even an undercard doesn't feel quite right with the drawing limper in there.

Re: easy does it
 

nice hand R1.

Re: easy does it
 

He kept the three way action going until the river. What's better than that? Why force someone out when he can make more money on every street this way.

Re: easy does it
 

[ QUOTE ]
Played perfectly. Some will never get it.
Ni Han Tommy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please. We call these people "winning players."
-James

Re: easy does it
 

[ QUOTE ]
He kept the three way action going until the river. What's better than that? Why force someone out when he can make more money on every street this way.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not make the player who is on a draw (Tommy's words) put in 2 bets on the turn, especially since he's not going to put any in on the river when he misses...

Re: easy does it
 

On the turn we'd be making L2 call two cold. Do we know L2 will call two cold on a paired board with his draw? Or are we likely to force him out?

Re: easy does it
 

[ QUOTE ]
On the turn we'd be making L2 call two cold. Do we know L2 will call two cold on a paired board with his draw? Or are we likely to force him out?

[/ QUOTE ]

Both results are better for us than him calling 1 bet if he has a legitimate draw.
-James

Re: easy does it
 

[ QUOTE ]
On the turn we'd be making L2 call two cold. Do we know L2 will call two cold on a paired board with his draw? Or are we likely to force him out?

[/ QUOTE ]

Does it matter? If you're L3, don't you pretty much auto-pop Tommy back regardless of your holding?

If Tommy drives out L2 for you and you're no longer fearing the 8, you're telling him you can beat overs or can draw to it and he's going to have to call 2 more.

If L2 is on the draw (or is letting the T bet out for his 8) but still finds a call then L3's in a bit of a pickle, but can Tommy handle any more action? I'm sorry, but I'm sure Tommy's beat if L3 pops him again in this scenario and may be drawing to a 1-outer.

Maybe L2's call keeps L3 in check; that's a table read we can't make. I don't think there's any action Tommy is going to like if he raises the turn.

Re: easy does it
 

[ QUOTE ]
Does it matter? If you're L3, don't you pretty much auto-pop Tommy back regardless of your holding?

[/ QUOTE ]

Tommy doesn't play against you. His "special class of super retards" is completely different than the ones we see every day - which is probably why his play is often as mike l.'s gets on occasion, though in the other direction.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think there's any action Tommy is going to like if he raises the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

exactly.

Re: easy does it
 

[ QUOTE ]

Both results are better for us than him calling 1 bet if he has a legitimate draw.
-James


[/ QUOTE ]

Good point. A lot of players could be in that spot with semi-legitimate draws though. Gutshots who think their pair draws may be live, and underpairs who think their hand might still be good. I think a lot of these would willing donate one bet all the way through on the chance their hand is good, or maybe be good if they hit their bad draw.

You are probably right in thinking that the pot is big enough we don't need to go for overcalls, and would be better off protecting our hand if we're ahead.

Re: easy does it
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I like it a lot. You made 4 big bets without ever taking the chance of being bluff raised. If you raise the flop you will lose L2 and would probably miss a river bet when the Queen hit and it is checked to you. It is important to realize that Flop agression is a conservative play. In these situations it is best used to slow or stop action. You got a ton of action with a hand that was very hard to draw out on. What would you have done if either player proceeded to check raise the river, call I presume?

The more I think about it, you made the most you could while losing the least if you were beaten. I also think the river bet was a little frisky, no?

[/ QUOTE ]

With all due respect, I think you're way off base here. First, (chronoligcally, not in terms of importance), you for some reason think that being raised on a bluff would be a bad thing. I'd welcome it with my JJ, 'cause I ain't folding them to a single raise. Second and third (the two are related), you for some other unexplained reason seem to think that a raise would drop L2 and that Tommy's JJ is "very hard to draw out on." If L2 is on a decent flush draw then he's got at least one overcard to Tommy's JJ, which gives him ELEVEN outs. If L1 has a T and an overcard to Tommy's JJ, then that's another five outs. Make no mistake, Tommy's hand is very vulnerable.

Overall, I don't think the hand is as bad as some of the other stuff Tommy's posted lately, but I think that Tommy's reads were right: L1 had a T and L2 had a draw -- neither of which is at all likely to fold to a raise with this reasonably big pot -- and in that situation raising either the flop or the turn is the far better play.

[/ QUOTE ]

I absolutely agree with the reply... if your are confident in your reads after the flop you must put in a raise on the turn... otherwise stop trying to put people on a hand... if you're not going to use your ability to make more money...

The only question I see is where do you put in a raise...

Do you do it on the flop to thin the field and let your opponents define their hand... that is certainly what the L3 wanted to happen... my thought on the flop is interesting... i think the call is ok here b/c... you are not likely to get any reasonable draw to fold and definitely not an 8... so why not call... IMO call here lets opponents define hand a little better as it turns out... when everyone folded except for L2.... then the hands are reasonably defined and you must put raise in on the turn... otherwise you are just playing passively... and weak...

Overall... it depends on what you want to do... but a raise on one of the streets is imperative... and personally I would put it in on the turn...

Re: easy does it
 

Where do you guys play that JT and T9 will threebet this turn?

-Michael

Re: easy does it
 

[ QUOTE ]
Where do you guys play that JT and T9 will threebet this turn?

-Michael

[/ QUOTE ]

A "player" will if he sees this opportunity. Not a weak-tight or a rock tho. They dont have the balls to make a move like that. I see the above mentioned "move" often enough on a weekly basis to agree completely with TA's play with certain lineups, as well as with other reasons already mentioned.

This is a depends hand. And I see good reasons for a few ways to play this hand. Tommy played it one way that I like under certain circumstances/lineups.

Why do so many think it's "auto this" or "auto that" and not even close? Possibly from lack of experience or knowledge of players/lineups?

Hell I dunno....just trying to expand my viewing screen. Maybe I'll see a new movie.

Re: easy does it
 

"The flop bet came from Tommy's immediate right when he was the PFR. Usually, that means 'no trip 8's'."

Usually yes. But probably somewhat less than usual if the guy knows Tommy. Tommy is more likely than, say, I would be, to check behind when everybody checks to him on the flop and also more likely than, say, I would be, to not raise on the flop with an overpair.

Paradoxically, knowing Tommy may make it less likely that the two guys behind Tommy have an 8, as they would probably be more aware of the possibility of the flop being checked through than were, say, I, the original flop raiser.

BTW, good to have you back. Glad to hear about your happy trip to India and your grandmother's fortitude.

Re: easy does it
 

[ QUOTE ]
I called, and L2 called. I put L2 on a draw. Still three of us.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm seeing alot of replies that go along the lines of "if you put L2 on a draw you should have raised the turn" If you look more carefully at the post you'll notice he didnt put him (L2) on a draw until after he (tommy) had already acted. So, the fact he puts him on a draw shouldn't really factor into the decision to raise or call the turn.

This is not the way I would play the hand, but I certainly see good reasons for playing it the way he did. Just my 2 cents.

Re: easy does it
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why force someone out when he can make more money on every street this way.

[/ QUOTE ]

Three reasons:

Ace

King

Queen.

I usually agree with T, but this time I gotta think that these Jacks have been overplayed. This hand is frighteningly vulnerable and I think T should do everything in his power to end the hand as quickly as possible. The money I lose when someone plays back at me is not going to add up to the money I stand to lose when (close to an astounding 50% of the time) an overcard to my pair falls.

This is not the time to go all passive. If he plays back, I will slow down (probably not fold in Party 15/30 because who knows what they raise with there), but I am raising to get the other players out on the flop or charge them more to chase if that is their preference.

Re: easy does it
 

[ QUOTE ]
Where do you guys play that JT and T9 will threebet this turn?

-Michael

[/ QUOTE ]

Party 15/30. Raise = "I have chips." Reraise = "I have lots of chips."