Am I too stupid for poker?
 

I'm not really sure how I expect people to answer this, but I'll give it a shot. I have been playing poker for almost two years and I have read at least ten books on poker. But whenever I sit down to play I may as well be a robot because I can't apply anything I've learned in games other than hand selection and some basic pot odds calculations. I understand the books when I read them (for example WLLHE, SSHE, TOP, HEPFAP) but I still can't apply the knowledge. I don't think my problem is a lack of focus because I have often played one table at a time all night long with very few interruptions. I feel that I should be a winning player, since I only play low limit (2/4 - 5/10) games or $10-$30 Sit n Go's. But even with bonuses I am still only break even. I know the games I play are beatable, but any advantage I gain from the worst players I give right back to the better players. I see lots of people post very good results after a short amount of time, so I have to wonder how they got so good so quickly. I am sure that most of the professional players were naturals and started winning almost right away, but it quickly became apparent that I would not be one of them. I really enjoyed playing poker for the past couple of years, but I always played under the assumption that eventually I would get better and become a consistent winner. My failure to do so has left me very frustrated with the game. I had money in three different poker sites and I have recently busted out of two of them. I have resolved not to deposit any more so if I bust out of the third I will be done with poker, online at least anyway. I guess I should just quit if poker isn't much fun but I just don't like the idea of feeling defeated by low limit online games. Did anyone else experience similar situations when they first start playing? How did you get over it?

Re: Am I too stupid for poker?
 

these type of books need to be STUDIED, not just skimmed though like a cheap novel.

Re: Am I too stupid for poker?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I see lots of people post very good results after a short amount of time, so I have to wonder how they got so good so quickly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not necesarily. Many who win in a shorttime are losing players. And vice versa. Ed M didn't win right off the bat and he's a monster.

[ QUOTE ]
I am sure that most of the professional players were naturals and started winning almost right away,

[/ QUOTE ]

Im sure you're wrong. Most paid their dues in the learning process. Especially prior to online play where the dues are a little cheaper.

If it's not fun, quit. At least ya gave it a shot. Otherwise, get more involved with the forum. Test your thinking against others and learn.

It's not as easy as many make it seem to be. It takes alot of work.

b

Re: Am I too stupid for poker?
 

[ QUOTE ]
even with bonuses I am still only break even

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're break even, I think you're doing better than most players. I've been playing about the same amount of time as you and I'm still learning A LOT. In fact I'm going through a 200 BB downswing right now (worst one yet) and just had my first winning session in a few weeks tonight. But I'm certainly not giving up.

Like edtost wrote: study the books...over and over again...and post hands here for review and learn from that too. Good luck!

Re: Am I too stupid for poker?
 

Please use paragraphs in the future. "I am sure that most of the professional players were naturals and started winning almost right away, but it quickly became apparent that I would not be one of them"

I don't think this is true, all poker players that are good have put a lot of time and effort into it. You have part of what it takes to be good right off, you are realistic. How much of the last couple years have you spent on playing, and how much have you spent on trying to improve your game? I note you only have 1 post on this site. After a year on this site I had at least 1k posts from the strategy forum.

Re: Am I too stupid for poker?
 

Hey, welcome to the forums. I think these steps will help you become a winning player.

1. Forget what you've read in HEPFAP, most of it is not applicable to low limits.

2. RE-READ and STUDY Small Stakes Hold'em. LEARN it.

3. Drop to micro limits. Make sure you have a 300BB bankroll for whatever limit you choose, but DON'T start any higher than .50/1. You may be well served by playing in some nano-limits on pacific or stars.

4. Invest in poker tracker. It will definately pay for itself.

5. Read the forums and post hands in the micro limit forum that you were confused about.

6. Move up limits slowly.

7. Most importantly - understand that poker is an acquired skill and you're going to have to learn it. It won't just come with time.


Good luck.

Re: Am I too stupid for poker?
 

I think you're asking the right questions.

I've been playing for about 5 months pretty seriously, and I'm still not beating the .50/1 game at Party consistantly. Thanks to some bonus whoring, I'm up a bit, but my winrate is about -1.2BB/100 for 5K hands. Not a lot I know, but it's frustrating as hell to read (as you do) about everyone going "yeepee! I'm making 2K a month after reading SSH and TOP... This is so easy I'm quiting school and going pro...".

I don't think I'm a 'tard (grad school in engineering and a successful career), but this poker thing is a challenge. I have read and reread (and yes, studied, several books) but I'm still not winning.

Maybe it's a cold streak, maybe I'm not getting good cards (which I don't think I am, I haven't completed a flush in 14 attempts in the last few days), but it's getting old...

Hang in there. One think that I think would be invaluable (and I'd pay for) is some poker "coaching". Someone to review your PT stats, and a hundred or so hands you've played to give you some feedback...

Hang in there, it will get better. You may want to move down in limits until you're beating the game. 5/10 is pretty stiff from what I hear..

Regards,
Francis

Re: Am I too stupid for poker?
 

Consider playing more tightly, as advised in Phil Hellmuth's "Play Poker like the Pros." If, as an extreme example, you followed Phil's advice to play only the "Top 10" hands, you will almost certainly be a small winner in low limit games.

This could be a hold-over solution until you think you've thorougly digested more advanced concepts.

Re: Am I too stupid for poker?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Phil Hellmuth's "Play Poker like the Pros."

[/ QUOTE ]

No offense subfallen, but IMHO the limit portion of this book is about as valuable as used toilet paper. Stick to SSHE.

Re: Am I too stupid for poker?
 

I'll tell you your problem.

Reged: 01/05/05
Posts: 1

As far as people having natural ability and getting results quickly thats crap.

I play 5/10 6max after starting 5 months ago, I worked my way up from free money games to nanos up to low limits.

Considering most days i'll spend 10 hours on poker its not that quick a move up.

Its a tough game.

Reading a bunch of books doesnt do much if you dont analyze every situation.

Re: Am I too stupid for poker?
 

He's right. I learnt the game with play money, quickly saw that it was silly and moved to 0.5/1 where I lost $300 before stumbling across this site and others. You gotta put the time in. Now I'm beating 5/10 but yes it takes a lot of work.

Post some hands you had trouble with and get the reaction. It certainly helps. I haven't posted one in a while and I'm sure it must be time [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Am I too stupid for poker?
 

good post

i think the worst advice is to read more

the only way to get better is to play more

everything you read just helps you think about what your doing when you play - i think you might be thinking about what you read when you play

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

Re: Am I too stupid for poker?
 

A few suggestions:

Practice putting people on hands. This is actually harder at the low limits, because many of the players are extremely passive, but try to look at the board and your opponents' betting and think what they might have. When you start to have some success at putting people on hands, use that information. Bet and raise when you think you're ahead, and fold or check-call (depending on how good your hand is and pot size) when you think you'r behind.

Be more agressive with your good hands. Winning poker is not just about hand-selection, it's about getting the most out of the hand you win. Try to make sure you get every bet possible when you win.

Find the leaks: A few possibilities: Rarely cold call raises preflop. You need a better hand to play after a raise than you do to raise yourself. If your hand is good enough to raise, it's usually best to re-raise. There are probably a lot of places that you are donating to pots that you shouldn't donate to. There are also probably a lot of bets you are missing on your winners.

Re: Am I too stupid for poker?
 

I don't quite have the wealth of experience of some of the other posters here but I'd suggest...

(i) Move down to 0.5/1 - you're playing for fun, not a living right; learn cheap, learn easy.

(ii) Play one table only - concentrate on the game, all those hands you're not in try guessing what everyone's holding. Try to identify who is loose / passive / tight / agressive.

(ii) I'm betting you play preflop pretty much by rote ("The book says raise AJo preflop, so that's what I do")? Pause before you make the robot play, think WHY am I about to call / raise / fold - what do I want everyone else to do after me?

(iii) Don't slowplay hands that don't merit it. SSHE has very good advice about when and when not to slowplay if I remember correctly. If in doubt, don't slowplay at all. At low limits you lose much more by slowplaying too much than you do by not slowplaying enough.

(iv) Get pokertracker, if you haven't already. Use it to play back your hands, the ones you won as well as lost - did you really play the hand as well (or as badly) as you thought? If you use pokertracker for nothing else use it to check you really are playing suitably tight preflop.

(v) Understand that variance is the prime determinator of your winnings in any given session, ability takes a large number of sessions to shine through. So when you have a -30BB session, you WERE unlucky. When you have a +30BB session, you WERE lucky. Neither session's outcome was heavily dependent on your skill, so don't get depressed / cocky. Use pokertracker to track your longer term progress (longer term means tens of thousands of hands - some on this site would advocate hundreds of thousands), this is what is determined by ability.

But then you probably don't want to listen to me, I'm 5.5k hands into 2/4 for the grand total (excluding bonuses) of -$8.41.

Best of luck buddy.

RH

Re: Am I too stupid for poker?
 

You might consider your personality profile relative to poker.

Some personality types may be predisposed to poker, implying strongly that others may not.

This essay elaborates these ideas and has a useful personality test at the end.

This Other Essay also may be useful to you.

This post was intended to broadly spread interest, hopefully academic and RESEARCH interest, into these ideas.

Re: Am I too stupid for poker?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hey, welcome to the forums. I think these steps will help you become a winning player.

1. Forget what you've read in HEPFAP, most of it is not applicable to low limits.


I hope you're not serious.

Re: Am I too stupid for poker?
 

Also a good thing might be to get started in a poker school on the net.

Re: Am I too stupid for poker?
 

yes

Re: Am I too stupid for poker?
 

[ QUOTE ]
1. Forget what you've read in HEPFAP, most of it is not applicable to low limits.

[/ QUOTE ]
If you feel like you can't apply HEPFAP concepts when they're applicable and instead you need to block out a great book by pretending it doesn't exist then you are too stupid for poker.

Re: Am I too stupid for poker?
 

"I really enjoyed playing poker for the past couple of years, but I always played under the assumption that eventually I would get better and become a consistent winner. My failure to do so has left me very frustrated with the game. "

You don't "get" better. You make yourself better.

Start by studying at least as long as you play every day. Identify areas of your play that need improvement and focus on improving those areas. When you are comfortable that you have improved these areas pick something else and repeat the process. From time to time look at areas of your game where you feel you are strong and see if you can improve those areas too. A good hard look at skills you take for granted may find a leak.

Study this forum and try to understand how winning players think at the table and try to apply the concepts and ideas that are being discussed here. Participate in the process and get called an idiot and have your ideas ripped apart. Find someone to share blocks of hands with and analyze their play and have them analyze yours.

Be innovative and creative in finding ways to improve your game. Apply yourself. Carry around a poker book so that when you are waiting for a bus or ina cab or at a lunch counter you can study for a few minutes.

In six months you won't believe how much better you can play.

Re: Am I too stupid for poker?
 

I'm grouchy today I guess....here comes a kind of mean post. you have been fore-warned.


study.
think about how you're playing.

ummmm....try posting HH's in the strategy forums for feedback as well as reading through the other strategy-discussions there.

it doesn't happen magically.


I was hardly a natural when I started and I doubt many others were as well.
I started almost exactly 2 years ago and was not certain whether a flush beat a full-house or vice-versa.
I was on many buddy-lists I'm sure.

After reading and thinking and posting HH's and reading more HH's I've grown to become slightly better than mediocre (meaning that I win more than I lose....which really ain't too shabby).



Anybody who says "I'm losing...I've read ALL the books and I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong" probably is too stupid to win consistently.
Because the answer (study your game...and post and read some HH's) is ludicrously obvious.


While you didn't say it directly...there is almost an implication in your post (and other posts of similar nature as well) that goes something like "hey...I'm playing just like they told me to in SSHE and WLLHE but am not winning."

Well, SSHE and WLLHE are two VERY different books and it is not possible to play both strategies at the same time.
how so many people can claim to have read both books and NOT see this obvious fact is beyond me.


If you think you are playing as SSHE and WLLHE are telling you to and can't see that this is not even possible then you certainly will not be able to see that you are probably playing in a way that neither book would recommend.

Re: Am I too stupid for poker?
 

NO. I lst and was frustrated when I first started as well but...I started posting, really reading poker books and really focusing on the game when I played. I'm not smart but I have managed to be fairly successful, so if I can do it anyone can. Stick with up and step it up or wrap it up.

Re: Am I too stupid for poker?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
1. Forget what you've read in HEPFAP, most of it is not applicable to low limits.

[/ QUOTE ]
If you feel like you can't apply HEPFAP concepts when they're applicable and instead you need to block out a great book by pretending it doesn't exist then you are too stupid for poker.

[/ QUOTE ]|

I would bet that the vast majority of professional players have more or less memorized HEPFAP.

Re: Am I too stupid for poker?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would bet that the vast majority of professional players have more or less memorized HEPFAP.

[/ QUOTE ]

i play poker professionally and i dont think that book added anything to my game - i personally know 4-5 other full time players and i'm confident they either havent read it or have a similar view

there is some useful stuff in the book but i doubt it could ever be more than 2% of a poker education

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

Re: Am I too stupid for poker?
 

It is possible that you are too stupid, to use your words. I'm sure you aren't really stupid, but you probably have zero poker talent.

I think many winning players underestimate how much natural talent they have and therefore believe almost anyone can learn as they have.

I've played enough hands to be sure that I'm profitable. It seems easy to me, but I might just be talented.

Look for another hobby if you are bored. Life's too short to waste time at something if you're bored with it. Financially, it'll never compensate you enough for the boredom.

Also, another clue as to whether you have talent or not is if you have ever excelled at any other strategy game before? Chess, backgammon, Monopoly, etc... If you've been really good at some of these games, then you just have bad luck.

Re: Am I too stupid for poker?
 

First inclination was to just say, "yes". [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
Sorry, I'm not a frequent poster so please don't jump all over me. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] I've been playing about 2 1/2 yrs.

I would definitely say that playing as many hands as possible will help. I started with Turbo Texas Hold'em...then .02/.04 at planet and worked up to $1/2...then started playing .5/1 - 1/2 at party and planet. Now I am comfortable at $5/10. I also played as many free tourneys as I could at planet (Tourney section is still down right now). I think the experience is what helps the most (assuming you have a basic knowledge of the game - I assume you have, seeing as your poker library is quit extensive)

Also, don't let money be an issue. I have a separate account that holds my bankroll. If I lost it all tonight, I could go on (I would probably feel a little sick [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]). Playing with funds that aren't earmarked for something else takes a lot of the stress out.

DON'T let other peoples, "winning", bad play discourage you. I say this because I know it discourages a lot of beginners. They want to do what it takes to win.

Definitely read what is on these forums and post (I know - one to talk). Most of the people here love the game and will help you.