Should I limp 22 UTG?
 

yes.

Re: Should I limp 22 UTG?
 

Ha.

Ha.

Ha.

And thank you.

Re: Should I limp 22 UTG?
 

Now thats the way to post.

Also limp AA
 

every time.
bk

Re: Also limp AA
 

big ups to benny for the awesome avatar! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Should I limp 22 UTG?
 

[ QUOTE ]
yes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, I'll bite. (sometimes I swear these posts are big fishing hooks waiting for me to chomp down on and get myself into trouble. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img])

Why?

Re: Should I limp 22 UTG?
 

Thank you so much for stopping by. Seriously, I have seen some sickening advice here the last couple days.

-DeathDonkey

Re: Should I limp 22 UTG?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because two twos is better than one.

Re: Should I limp 22 UTG?
 

Well yeah, there is that. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: Should I limp 22 UTG?
 

No

Re: Should I limp 22 UTG?
 

No

If you are playing micro-limits and you are folding 22 UTG, either A) you do not understand how good and easy this hand is or B) you are practicing lousy table selection.

So, I repeat: yes.

Re: Should I limp 22 UTG?
 

I thought you multitabled 3/6....

Easy fold. Right?

Re: Should I limp 22 UTG?
 

I thought you multitabled 3/6.... Easy fold. Right?

No.

Let's say that you ranked the quality of all tables on a scale from 1-100. The made-up threshold at which limping 22 UTG is +EV is 65. Your average Party 3/6 table (of all the tables going at one time) is about a 60, give or take blah blah blah. Your average Party .5/1 table is an 85, and your average Party 1/2 10-max table is about a 75.

Now, understand that that is counting every shitty table that you should leave post-haste. With careful table selection, you can find 3/6 tables where limping 22 UTG is +EV, but it takes extraordinarily bad table selection (ala, I'm sitting in the 2+2 private game) to find a Party micro table where it isn't +EV.

Re: Should I limp 22 UTG?
 

Yeah, because at the 2+2 private table, players typically straddle when UTG. You would then re-raise with 2+2 at UTG+1 to isolate the straddle. I don't bother to import those hands into PT as play is generally just silly.

Vern

Re: Should I limp 22 UTG?
 

Isn't this a no-brainer? You are ahead of all but 12 hands. Plus, it's simple to get away from if you miss.

Re: Should I limp 22 UTG?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Isn't this a no-brainer? You are ahead of all but 12 hands. Plus, it's simple to get away from if you miss.

[/ QUOTE ]

if its simple to get away from when you miss.. then are you really ahead of an agressive AK, etc?

Re: Should I limp 22 UTG?
 

it's not a no-brainer, and you're not really "ahead" of all but 12 hands You've only got a small edge against any unpaired overcards.

Anyhoo, I made this thread because limping small pairs in soft games seems to scare some people. And I wanted to establish that that is dumb.

Re: Should I limp 22 UTG?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I thought you multitabled 3/6.... Easy fold. Right?

No.

Let's say that you ranked the quality of all tables on a scale from 1-100. The made-up threshold at which limping 22 UTG is +EV is 65. Your average Party 3/6 table (of all the tables going at one time) is about a 60, give or take blah blah blah. Your average Party .5/1 table is an 85, and your average Party 1/2 10-max table is about a 75.

Now, understand that that is counting every shitty table that you should leave post-haste. With careful table selection, you can find 3/6 tables where limping 22 UTG is +EV, but it takes extraordinarily bad table selection (ala, I'm sitting in the 2+2 private game) to find a Party micro table where it isn't +EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

So this leads to the question I've wanted to ask for a long time (well I've only been playing for 2 months so its not that long). I play 1/2 mostly at Party Poker. How do you select a proper table?

My original technique was to sort the tables by average pot size and get on the waiting list for the top 3-4. I can tell you now that that's not it. Now I click hide full tables, sort by average pot, and open (but do not join) the 4 in about the middle of the list (without scrolling down). I watch each one looking for 5+ people seeing the flop for at least 2 hands out of 3 or 4. If a table doesn't pass this check I close it and open the next one down. When I have 2 or 3 that pass this check I join the waiting list for each of them, sitting at the first table offered.

BTW, I almost always limp in UTG with 22.

Bill

Re: Should I limp 22 UTG?
 

Bison you seem to think Party is the only Poker site when blindly saying always limp.

Take that 22 UTG over to Stars, Absolute, or TGC and see how +EV it is limping with small pairs in EP on tables that have less then 30% to the flop. Maybe it is...

Re: Should I limp 22 UTG?
 

How about a thread on playing AK after missing the flop

Re: Should I limp 22 UTG?
 

Maybe. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Anyway like I said yesterday, I'm limping all small PP UTG for a month and see what happens.

Re: Should I limp 22 UTG?
 

Since the topic of 22 has come up, at what point would you raise 22 first in?

Re: Should I limp 22 UTG?
 

Button with tight blinds or SB with tight BB.

At micro tables, it´s probably very rarely correct to raise 22 first in.

Re: Should I limp 22 UTG?
 

Button. Maybe CO in tight games.

Re: Should I limp 22 UTG?
 

I´ve mucked this hand most of the time I have played. I´ve played a little .5/1 when bored and probably fold it like half the time still.

What are your stats with Axs and small pairs UTG ?

If you have anywhere near a meaningfull sample that is.

I think a beginner easily could be negative EV with either of these hands if played 100%.

Re: Should I limp 22 UTG?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Take that 22 UTG over to Stars, Absolute, or TGC and see how +EV it is limping with small pairs in EP on tables that have less then 30% to the flop. Maybe it is...

[/ QUOTE ]

It isn't.

Saying something like "always limp 22 when UTG" is going to punch a leak in many-a-reader's game.

bk

Re: Should I limp 22 UTG?
 

I'm surprised 22 isn't an auto-muck for you at 3/6 UTG. That's encouraging that you find it to be +EV even at that level. I guess there's more money to be made there than I thought.

My answer for whether we should be limping with 22 UTG at .50/1 and 1/2 would be it depends.

I UTG limp with 22 very frequently but not 100%. I always do if I think there's a decent chance of having the pot be 5 way or more and the table hasn't been raising pf all the time. I find many of the 1/2 games I play don't meet this criteria and I'll muck it. I often play against super-maniacs on .50/1 and will often muck against them too.

Leaving every table where limping UTG with 22 is -EV is interesting advice but perhaps a bit unrealstic for some of us. It seems to me that if you multitable sometimes you will find yourself in these tables and will have to adjust your limping standards to the conditions of the table.

Re: Should I limp 22 UTG?
 

trix:

I've applied a filter to my 40k hands from December, and my 32k hands in October:

Hands: 22, 33, 44, 55
9-10 people at the table
Player is 6 or more positions off the button but not a blind.

There are 91 instances in December and 80 instances in October (85% 3/6, 15% .5/1).

Overall, I made .23BB/hand when dealt 22-55 UTG or UTG+1 at a 9 or 10 person table. My VPIP for those hands is > 97%, and I'm guessing some of those folds is when I'm UTG+1 and it's raised by the UTG player.

edit: I'm currently adding up all of my EP small pairs from august - december.

Re: Should I limp 22 UTG?
 

Okay, my stats gleaned from the last five months of 3/6 (which I hope everyone can agree should be a tougher game than Party .5/1 or 1/2):

Total Hands: 116,047
Instances of Small Pair in EP: 274
Net Gain: $431
.26BB/hand

Sure, there's a sample size issue here, but my impression has always been, and remains upon further reflection: if you can't limp 22 UTG, you should find another game.

Re: Should I limp 22 UTG?
 

Hey bison,

What's the ASF in those games? I'm guessing ~32%?

Re: Should I limp 22 UTG?
 

These are 3/6 stats, and the ASF numbers for the months vary between 29% and 33%

Re: Should I limp 22 UTG?
 

[ QUOTE ]
if you can't limp 22 UTG, you should find another game.




[/ QUOTE ]

Whats your VSIP????

Re: Should I limp 22 UTG?
 

My VPIP for 3/6 has stabilized somewhere between 14-15.

Re: Should I limp 22 UTG?
 

i thought so, i was sure that i read your VSIP was somewhere around mine. However i hardley ever limp UTG with less than 77 and am now wondering which hands i'm playing that you arent.

Re: Should I limp 22 UTG?
 

But he stated he had 274 small pairs in EP in 116K hands, if you dumped them and he played them and all the other hands you all played were identical, that would only change the VP$IP by 0.25%.

Re: Should I limp 22 UTG?
 

Yeah, I don't think that it's particularly interesting to compare these numbers. I play in different games than anyone one else in the entire world, and I make decisions based on the individual moments of these games.

Nonetheless, I think it's clear that small pairs in EP in the vast majority of decent low limit games are, at worst, EV neutral. There are tilt benefits, table benefits and fun benefits to be had from limping slightly more often in EP, and since 22 is never going to hurt you much UTG, I just can't believe that people won't limp it in the common micro games where it clearly has value.

Re: Should I limp 22 UTG?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Nonetheless, I think it's clear that small pairs in EP in the vast majority of decent low limit games are, at worst, EV neutral. There are tilt benefits, table benefits and fun benefits to be had from limping slightly more often in EP, and since 22 is never going to hurt you much UTG, I just can't believe that people won't limp it in the common micro games where it clearly has value.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok I will give it to you that these are at worst 0 EV, but after the flop are these always set or fold when faced with aggression then (ignoring straight chances and assuming you are rarely getting the correct odds to chase the set to the turn and river)?

Thats where my problem comes with the advice. Its a persons post flop play that will determine whether these are profitable or not.

Re: Should I limp 22 UTG?
 

yes. I mean, unless the pot is huge on the flop, or you flopped a straight draw, how are you going to continue without a set? I just don't see these hands as particularly complex. They're nowhere near as difficult as Axs hands.

Re: Should I limp 22 UTG?
 

Small pairs make more than sets.

This hand was discussed here. (You can see the suites there too)

[ QUOTE ]

Table is sLP-P. Opponents are bad post-flop. Nice juicy table.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with 5, 5.
UTG folds, Hero calls, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, CO folds, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 8, K, 8 (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, Button calls, SB folds, BB folds.

Turn: (3 BB) T (2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks.

River: (3 BB) 6 (2 players)
Hero bets, Button calls.

Final Pot: 5 BB


[/ QUOTE ]
I should have bet the turn, too, probably.

This situation is much harder to play that a flopped set, becasue it is very opponent-, board- and situation-dependant.

Re: Should I limp 22 UTG?
 

[ QUOTE ]

Bison you seem to think Party is the only Poker site when you blindly say always limp


[/ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]

If you are playing micro-limits and you are folding 22 UTG, either...B) you are practicing lousy table selection.


[/ QUOTE ]