Playing against a 80% VPIP 30% PFR jackal?
 

So i rounded up a bit, but these stats are pretty close against a few of the types of crazies i've found myself up against in the past few weeks, and i'm at a loss for how to play these guys, other than flopping quads or a str8 flush.

I've been in some pots with these guys who try to win every single pot and call despite the horrendous odds (and often with some horrendous cards in the case of some flush draw chases). How the hell do you play against someone like this, knowing that there is NO amount of $$$ that will get them to fold? I've been losing my stacks a lot lately trying to protect my hand from them improving to something better, but it's just not working. I've been reading all my books over again, but many of these assume you're playing against a rational opponent, which almost none of these are.

Any thoughts other than folding everything until you get AA and hit a set or a FH with it (or better)?

Re: Playing against a 80% VPIP 30% PFR jackal?
 

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Any thoughts other than folding everything until you get AA and hit a set or a FH with it (or better)?

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If I knew you would do that I'd be at 80%vpip and 30%pfr too.

Just push harder with hands than you would against a normal person.

Against guys like these I've gone all in with like AQ preflop and been called by like KQ and AJ and other crap.

Very Fun.

Re: Playing against a 80% VPIP 30% PFR jackal?
 

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Any thoughts other than folding everything until you get AA and hit a set or a FH with it (or better)?

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If I knew you would do that I'd be at 80%vpip and 30%pfr too.

Just push harder with hands than you would against a normal person.

Against guys like these I've gone all in with like AQ preflop and been called by like KQ and AJ and other crap.

Very Fun.

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I tried a little technique i read in Harrington's book where u limp in from EP and if any action happens, pop a big raise when it comes back around to you. I popped an all in raise and i got called by K7o... and he hit a f'ing str8. Stuff like this is happening on a regular basis to me, and i want to pull my hair out.

Re: Playing against a 80% VPIP 30% PFR jackal?
 

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got called by K7o... and he hit a f'ing str8. Stuff like this is happening on a regular basis to me, and i want to pull my hair out.

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That is too funny. Thanks for the good laugh. Sorry about your luck though. Just laughing because I identify. I was actually doing this tonight. The 80 % VPIP and 30 % pfr thing. It worked quite well and I made about $100 tonight on the $25 tables. You might try it and if you do, you can probably figure out how to beat someone doing the same thing. A simple reraise preflop and automatic 3/4 pot bet on the flop is what I would do against me. I wouldn't reraise all-in but I would reraise maybe 3x what the maniac raised.

Re: Playing against a 80% VPIP 30% PFR jackal?
 

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It worked quite well and I made about $100 tonight on the $25 tables. You might try it and if you do, you can probably figure out how to beat someone doing the same thing.

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I've tried it, it doesn't work for me. Too many ppl will call with anything for it to work, and someone is always hitting something better.

Re: Playing against a 80% VPIP 30% PFR jackal?
 

The answer is:

Fix your serious misconceptions about poker.

Re: Playing against a 80% VPIP 30% PFR jackal?
 

Play PREMIUM starters and bet the hell out of them. Raise, ReRaise, ReReRaise. If you've got PREMIUM cards hammer these maniacs. If you do get AA or KK limp re-raise all in and watch the jackal defend his manhood by calling. See the article on internet NL in this month's magazine for why this is a good play (Wayfare - great article by the way).

Understand that hands that are "WAY AHEAD" preflop are probably only 3:1 or 4:1 favorites which means that OVER YOUR ENTIRE POKER LIFE 1 time in 5 you'll get outdrawn. That doesn't mean that every 5th time in a given night you'll get outdrawn. It could happen 10 times in a row and just because it happened 10 times in a row doesn't mean its less likely to happen next time. If you can't handle the swings, play limit.

Play Well!
[img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]The Ugly One! [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

Re: Playing against a 80% VPIP 30% PFR jackal?
 

Simple.. you beat the hell out of your premium hands. Raise a riduculous amount preflop with them. If they are raising 30% preflop, then LIMP with your AA, and reraise them all-in or enough to where more than half their stack is in the middle before the flop even comes. 4 out of 5 times you are winning.

Otherwise, play for sets, and crush them. You'll be doing a LOT of folding, but that's okay.. when you get a hand, they will pay you off anyways. Check-raise is your friend here. When you are at a table that is extremely insanely loose, you tighten up and crush them with your big hands. They won't even notice.

Re: Playing against a 80% VPIP 30% PFR jackal?
 

Sorry was hung over when I wrote that. But it's the best advice I can give.

Re: Playing against a 80% VPIP 30% PFR jackal?
 

I think a common thing that kills good players when playing against terrible 80% guys like this is that they underestimate them. They say "this guy is terrible, I need to get my stack in against him". Basically the good player is tricked into playing poorly against a terrible player and ends up getting in way over his head with mediocre hands.

Just treat a bad player like everyone else. If you have a great hand and get reraised, by all means, go all in, but if you have a mediocre hand and get reraised, you have to let it go. Bad players catch good cards just as much as everyone else. Solid play vs. bad players will yield positive results over time, but you shouldn't expect to take their stack on every hand.

Re: Playing against a 80% VPIP 30% PFR jackal?
 

Value Bet like a Jackal [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]. Don't bluff or semi bluff only bet with a made hand. If they are not normal jackals and begin to notice that your peddling the nuts and don't give you action, then and only then will you want to begin semi bluffing and the like.

Re: Playing against a 80% VPIP 30% PFR jackal?
 

Keep playing against them! That's the best thing you can do...add them to your buddy list and sit at their tables any opportunity. These guys give you lots of money over time. I've definitely had my fair share of bad beats by these guys, but re-load and get it back. I think too often people get scared of these guys because they busted them on a gutshot. You welcome guys like these. Now onto a little strategy....
You can re-raise with alot more hands. And make them pay dearly. You can play more hands against him too, because you can outplay him on the flop. But don't get too attached to a hand. But when you do get a strong hand make them pay. Sometimes people tighten up even more and wait for great hands to bust him, and this is fine as long as you are getting the money when you have them, but often you are leaving money at the table. A final note, is be wary of other players in the pot against him, because often they will be waiting for their chance to bust him, so don't get caught in the crossfire.

Re: Playing against a 80% VPIP 30% PFR jackal?
 

Sorry. My post sounded stupid now that I read it back. What I meant was. I don't always play 80 % of my hands and raise 30 % . Whenever I come across a real tight table, I start doing that. When I find they are folding to my raises, I raise much more often but not every hand because then they lose all respect completely. When I find they are folding to my pot size bets on the flop, I bluff more. Worked well last night. I really do it more for table image. BTW, when I bluff, I often show them the bluff. They either leave, get mad and go on tilt, or handle like a true professional. In one instance, I raise preflop with a 3 4 o to 4x the blind. This was last night on the $25 tables. Anyway, I raised and got one caller. This table was really tight and it was the only reason I was doing it. Flop came A K X . I bet 3/4th the pot which I think was about $5 so I bet $4 . Guy in MP folds and I show him the 3 4 o and he promptly left the table. Also, if you are going to do these things, showing bluffs and raising with crap. I would keep chat turned off.

I'm no expert but I'm new to $25 6 max tables but just letting people know what worked for me.

Re: Playing against a 80% VPIP 30% PFR jackal?
 

Ugly, I was actually trying that and it worked for me , too but the problem was that I would go like 20 minutes without raising a hand and then I'd get AA and raise and just pick up the blinds. So to solve that I projected a loose image. I finally got people calling when I had A A . Not only did they call but they called a 6x blind raise when I had A A .

Re: Playing against a 80% VPIP 30% PFR jackal?
 

Don't apologize Wayfare, you're completely right.

Re: Playing against a 80% VPIP 30% PFR jackal?
 

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I think a common thing that kills good players when playing against terrible 80% guys like this is that they underestimate them. They say "this guy is terrible, I need to get my stack in against him". Basically the good player is tricked into playing poorly against a terrible player and ends up getting in way over his head with mediocre hands.

Just treat a bad player like everyone else. If you have a great hand and get reraised, by all means, go all in, but if you have a mediocre hand and get reraised, you have to let it go. Bad players catch good cards just as much as everyone else. Solid play vs. bad players will yield positive results over time, but you shouldn't expect to take their stack on every hand.

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Bad players catch good hands but your odds of their holding an awful-mediocre hand are increased exponentially based on how loose they are.

Reread your statement while keeping that in mind.

Re: Playing against a 80% VPIP 30% PFR jackal?
 

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Value Bet like a Jackal [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]. Don't bluff or semi bluff only bet with a made hand. If they are not normal jackals and begin to notice that your peddling the nuts and don't give you action, then and only then will you want to begin semi bluffing and the like.

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The problem i'm having lately is that i DO bet and bet with a made hand, yet i still get called down everytime with these jokers that chase and hit their str8's, flushes, etc. Hell, sometimes they're even putting themselves all-in when i've got them beat on the flop...

Could it possibly be the stakes i'm playing at? (usually .05/.10, but i've recently moved up to .10/.25 where i was doing well at 10BB/100 for the first 5k hands, but am now down to less than 1). I know to some this is almost chump change, and many play it like play chips (especially the high rollers who visit these stakes to mess around or rebuild their bankrolls after getting wiped out).

Re: Playing against a 80% VPIP 30% PFR jackal?
 

are you betting over the pot on the flop ? Say the pot is $6 on the flop and it is two suited. I had TPTK. I will bet $4. If one other is in the pot with me, he is getting 2.5 to 1 to call. He is getting improper odds on his flush but it is just small enough so that the bad players will make those calls. You want people to draw to their flush. You are ahead and you want some action. This is where you make the money. However, if you overbet the pot, I believe your variance is increased since if you lose , you lose much more. On the flop, with TPTK, you are usually a 66 % to 33 % favorite to win over a flush draw. If you bet half or 3/4th the pot, you are seeing one more card for cheaper than if you bet over the pot or bet the pot. If a 3rd card of the same suit does not hit, your % 's go to like 83 % to 17 % to win. How's that !!! ?? This is where you want to JAM IT a little more unless a scare card hits like an Ace when you hold a pair of kings. Get your money in when you are a bigger favorite. With one more card to come, you are a much bigger favorite. This way, your variance decreases and profits increase more steadily. Am I talking out of my ass here ?

Re: Playing against a 80% VPIP 30% PFR jackal?
 

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are you betting over the pot on the flop ? Say the pot is $6 on the flop and it is two suited. I had TPTK. I will bet $4. If one other is in the pot with me, he is getting 2.5 to 1 to call. He is getting improper odds on his flush but it is just small enough so that the bad players will make those calls. You want people to draw to their flush. You are ahead and you want some action. This is where you make the money. However, if you overbet the pot, I believe your variance is increased since if you lose , you lose much more. On the flop, with TPTK, you are usually a 66 % to 33 % favorite to win over a flush draw. If you bet half or 3/4th the pot, you are seeing one more card for cheaper than if you bet over the pot or bet the pot. If a 3rd card of the same suit does not hit, your % 's go to like 83 % to 17 % to win. How's that !!! ?? This is where you want to JAM IT a little more unless a scare card hits like an Ace when you hold a pair of kings. Get your money in when you are a bigger favorite. With one more card to come, you are a much bigger favorite. This way, your variance decreases and profits increase more steadily. Am I talking out of my ass here ?

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It all sounds right, but i need to work more on figuring out the pot odds for someone to continue, and what i need to do to make it a mistake for them to continue.

One example of where i'm going wrong may be this:

.10/25 blinds on UB (shorthanded full ring w/ 6 players)

I have TT (i'm between UTG and the CO, whatever u call that with 6 players)

UTG ($48.95) calls .25
Hero ($11.40) bets $1.10
CO ($3.40) folds
Button ($10.45) calls $1.10
SB folds
BB folds
UTG folds

Flop is 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Hero checks
Villain bets pot of $2.80

At this point i figure him for AK or A-rag where his kicker hit the flop, based on how he's played thus far. There was an outside chance he could have had 55 for an OESD, but i seriously doubted he had a great hand like a set or a higher overpair, so...

Hero bets $10.30 (all in)

and of course...

Villain calls

Turn: 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
River: 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

It looked for a second like i was safe if he didn't have a 5 or two, but sure enough he called with bottom pair that turned to trips with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and he takes down a $20.50 pot.

Did i make the right move here with my flop betting, or did the check raise give him decent if not dead on odds to call?

I've had similar hands where i've come out swinging, but it seems to have backfired on me, or at least i got called and sucked out on anyway... see hand (properly converted!) here in another thread. Maybe part of the problem is pot betting, and maybe i should be betting more or less on the flop?

Re: Playing against a 80% VPIP 30% PFR jackal?
 

Just last nite I was in the $.50-$1.00 PP NL games...Found a player just like you describe. The first time he snapped my off my AK with K high flop when he turned a 7 for K7 two pair. I had only been at the table a few minutes but had him "pegged" already. He did afterall call my preflop raise with K7o.

So after this...(I was 2 seats to his right) I just let him raise. Depnding on the others involved I either reraised large to create the dead money making the others fold and get head up with him all-in preflop or...more often...

I just called and let him keep firing each street. Even with 2nd pair I let him fire in EP and called him down all the way. He was firing the same amount but a smaller % of the pot each street. usually $15 or so...My 2nd pair was good more than once.

As a result I got extra money with others calling with weak hands too. The bad part is sometimes those "others" will catch. However because they are often playing "HIM" not you, they are usually donating to your cause.

Whats important about this strategy is knowing whether the LAG will fold to a re-raise or not. In some cases you know he will. It's at these times I just let them bet and take the money from each round. But if my holding is precarious AND the flop is dangerous but I think he is too weak THEN I will push hard. It's usually at these times they seem to fold.

A hand in particular; I am in MP with AJo...a hand I dont often play but this table is playing much weaker. I limp after 2 other loose limpers...he raises to 7 on the button. BB calls, 2 limpers call, I re-raise all-in for 35.00 more...he calls, with K8o and 1 loose limper calls with J9o...Unimproved I win. If I dont re-raise preflop I cant call a bet on the flop.

There are many ways to handle these players. Be careful tho because they do have a real hand once in a while too.

Re: Playing against a 80% VPIP 30% PFR jackal?
 

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If you can't handle the swings, play limit.

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Not like I'm going to start something, but this is a funny statement.

Limit actually has greater swings than no limit, so if you can't handle the swings in NL, dont play poker.

Re: Playing against a 80% VPIP 30% PFR jackal?
 

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Did i make the right move here with my flop betting, or did the check raise give him decent if not dead on odds to call?


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I dont find the hand particularly well played, but as was you got your money in as a ~75% favorite, so it was a bad beat. Nothing wrong with letting the underdog win everyonce in a while.

Re: Playing against a 80% VPIP 30% PFR jackal?
 

I read through Harrington On Hold Em the past couple days and implemented some of his preflop and flop betting strategies (even though they're more tourney oriented) with a pretty decent amount of success.

Raising more, and raising with a wider selection of hands (and mixing up what i bet, rather than just always betting the pot) has helped considerably with betting harder when i hit (or bluff when i miss) and being able to take down some pots without a showdown, as well as take down a larger pot when i win a showdown compared to just limping in with a pocket pair and hitting a set or a drawing hand and flopping a str8 or flush.

It could be that I was just due for a bad streak sooner or later, and this past week or so was it. Luckily for me, whatever i did yesterday worked well, as i was able to win back about 40% of what i had lost to all those bad beats.

Re: Playing against a 80% VPIP 30% PFR jackal?
 

DJ ,
I just read through your hand where TT was against A 3 suited. Preflop you did fine. I don't like the check on the flop because you really aren't trying to trap anyone here. You already got the guy to make a mistake by calling a huge preflop raise with A 3 suited. Pot is already nice and that flop is very scarey. I would bet 3/4th the pot or bet the pot. Say he called with A 7 or rags. You definitely don't want him seeing another card for free and making a straight or possible runner runner flush on you. I'm surprised he called your all-in reraise but you have to understand that he just put 2.80 into the pot and now in his mind he was pot committed. I would have folded if I was him to that reraise but I doubt I would have called your raise preflop, too. That is just one of those things. You will win right there the majority of the time.

A few nights ago, I had A K and two guys called my $3 raise preflop. Flop was : A K J . Very scarey flop since a possible straight is on the board. I bet a little over pot and took it down right there. For me, the more scarey the flop, the more I bet. First thing I do is evaluate the flop. I ask, Am I worried about another card on the turn ? I make my decisions accordingly.

Re: Playing against a 80% VPIP 30% PFR jackal?
 

I have players advise me to play ABC poker. Raise with A K, AA, KK, JJ, QQ, etc. Only premium hands and you really become very very predictable. You don't want to be predictable when playing poker. Use Game Theory. Put the other guy to the test. Do you have it or not ? There is fine line between good poker and complete stupidity, though. If you find players, just folding to every flop bet you make and folding to your raises preflop. Raise more and bet more flops but do it in a more intermittent and random fashion. Then, show them the bluff. Next time you have TPTK or flop two pair, many players will call to the turn with middle pair.

A couple nights ago I raised with Q 8 on the $25 NL tables. Flop came Q Q X . I think it was a rainbow so I wasn't worried about the flush. I checked it to the turn. Turn came a Ten. I bet about 3/4th the pot. MP thinks I have a ten. River is another ten giving me the nut full house. He also made a full house but made the tens full of queens. I went all-in on the river and he called me because of how loose I had been playing and how much I raise preflop with garbage. I doubled up on that hand.