STT basic strategy checklist
 

OK< starting to get a little bit of a feel for the Party $10/+$1 STT SNG's. Here's what I've got as a series of guidelines:

1) Play tight early: AA-JJ, AKs, AKo, AQs, AJs from EP, Axs, decent suited connectors, and AQ/AJ/KQ type hands in LP after limpers, pocket pairs in LP or if I think I can get in cheap.
2) Open up aggression when blinds hit 50/100. More blind steals and the like.
3) All-in or fold mindset with 8xBB or less. At 4xBB or less, looking for any pair, any Ace, most kings to push with.
4) If my stack is big enough to get into the money by playing tight, tighten up to Level 1-3 tightness standards and wait for the field to be limited to 3 people.

Obviously, no formula can capture optimal strategy, and these guidelines need to be adapted according to who's in the blinds, the table demeanor etc. etc.

How far off base am I?

Re: STT basic strategy checklist
 

I certainly wouldn't pretend to be in the position to say whether your guidelines are good or not, but you might want to check out FAQ for SnG's. Yours look similar to it though.

Re: STT basic strategy checklist
 

Points 1-3 look essentially fine. If I was going to pick nits, I'd perhaps suggest limping with all medium/small pairs from practically any position (one exception would be when it's folded to you in late position; on the other hand, you can play pairs for a small raise on levels 1-2 if the pot looks to be multiway), and erring on the tight side when it comes to hands like Axs and suited connectors. I might also suggest that a hand like 89s is probably better for pushing than A4o. But these suggestions would be minor compared to what I have to say about #4, namely: nope. If you have a comfortable/big stack on or near the bubble, you should take advantage of the fact that the medium stacks are trying to outlast the shorties by agressively going after the mediums' blinds. So, open-raise a whole lot when the medium stacks are in the blinds -- but be wary of small stacks who are ready to take a stand, as well as of agressive medium stacks who are itching to come over the top. If you raise with a trashy hand trying to take the blinds and a medium stack does play back, usually resist the temptation to make a "pot-odds" call. And do play tight when facing a raise yourself.

Re: STT basic strategy checklist
 

I'd play even tigheter in the first few levels. Premium hands from first 3 or 4 positions, even AQs/AJs are questionable EP and folding isn't far from wrong if it is.
Axs I would only play behind several limpers in LP, the same for suited connectors.

when blinds get 50/100, if you haven't played much, you'll be around 800-950. hence it'll be all-in or fold so it's just about picking your spots.

with a big stack, don't just coast into the money. open up a bit more and lean in favorable situations. on the bubble you can really lean against those that are obviously trying to make it into the money. your goal should be to win.

Re: STT basic strategy checklist
 

[ QUOTE ]
OK< starting to get a little bit of a feel for the Party $10/+$1 STT SNG's. Here's what I've got as a series of guidelines:

1) Play tight early: AA-JJ, AKs, AKo, AQs, AJs from EP, Axs, decent suited connectors, and AQ/AJ/KQ type hands in LP after limpers, pocket pairs in LP or if I think I can get in cheap.
2) Open up aggression when blinds hit 50/100. More blind steals and the like.
3) All-in or fold mindset with 8xBB or less. At 4xBB or less, looking for any pair, any Ace, most kings to push with.
4) If my stack is big enough to get into the money by playing tight, tighten up to Level 1-3 tightness standards and wait for the field to be limited to 3 people.

Obviously, no formula can capture optimal strategy, and these guidelines need to be adapted according to who's in the blinds, the table demeanor etc. etc.

How far off base am I?

[/ QUOTE ]

when your the big stack, bully the medium stacks w/top 40% of hands (ie: q8s).

Try your strat at $10+1 sng. after 100 of them, report your results. I think Aleo's SnG guide gets you 40% ROI at 10+1? (i think the FAQ says what the roi is at 10+1.)

Re: STT basic strategy checklist
 

[ QUOTE ]

Try your strat at $10+1 sng. after 100 of them, report your results. I think Aleo's SnG guide gets you 40% ROI at 10+1? (i think the FAQ says what the roi is at 10+1.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Aside from the fact that a 40% ROI at the $10s may not be sustainable at all, it's definitely not the case that Aleo's guide alone will get you anywhere near that number. Perhaps 10-15%.

The ROI numbers quoted in the SnG FAQ are rather optimistic.

Re: STT basic strategy checklist
 

i agree. your starting hands for the first few levels are WAY too loose. tighten up a lot. i dont play anything in the first 2 levels really. i fold AQ almost always. jacks are a limping hand unless in late position with no one in. thats how i play early.

the key to doing well in sngs is conserving your stack in the early rounds, not building it. if you have a premium hand, by all means play it to get some chips. but the early game accounts for maybe 20% of the game. you make all your money and chips using correct bubble and late game play. period.

Re: STT basic strategy checklist
 

Good point.

Levels 1-3, conserve your stack.

Levels 4 up, gamble.

Re: STT basic strategy checklist
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think Aleo's SnG guide gets you 40% ROI at 10+1? (i think the FAQ says what the roi is at 10+1.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Not even close. Does it really say that somewhere? Besides, it's not like any simple guide will get you any narrow range of ROI possibilities. Too much depends on how a given player handles tricky situations where some thinking is required. A novice SNG player using that guide might turn a small profit and would probably at least break even.

Regards
Brad S

Re: STT basic strategy checklist
 

[ QUOTE ]
Levels 1-3, conserve your stack. Levels 4 up, gamble.

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Gamble? 2+2ers don't gamble. We outplay our opponents.

You guys are good players. I don't understand why you are afraid to play hands with bad players. Given the meager stack sizes, you can only really "play" in the first couple levels, so don't waste this opportunity by folding. If things go well and you build your stack, now you have enough chips to "play" in levels 3+ too. You only have 20 hands or so to accomplish this, so there's no time to wait for a monster hand.

I used to play super tight early too. I then started playing more NL side games and actually learned how to play NL. Since I'm a better player, why wouldn't I want to get involved in more hands early, especially when in position?

Once I get to the middle levels and still have only 800, my ability to "play" is quite limited and therefore my advantage is decreased. At the higher levels, you basically "push and pray" and I have no advantage over someone who has no poker skill, but knows how to steal blinds.

I've also read Harrington on Holdem and agree with Harrington. Early on, I am going to pick good spots to try to build my stack. Once I get down to 600, I'll put the brakes on, but until then I'll be calling with a lot of hands in position and trying to buy pots when my opponents show weakness post-flop.

A good player is able to do this without putting their whole stack at risk. I don't understand when 2+2 players are afraid to play hands like AJ in position because they don't want to get into trouble with it. Who says you have to get in trouble with it? If the flop comes, A54 there's no law saying that you have to put all your chips in when someone raises you.

Re: STT basic strategy checklist
 

[ QUOTE ]
A good player is able to do this without putting their whole stack at risk. I don't understand when 2+2 players are afraid to play hands like AJ in position because they don't want to get into trouble with it. Who says you have to get in trouble with it? If the flop comes, A54 there's no law saying that you have to put all your chips in when someone raises you.

[/ QUOTE ]

in this situation, you are only going to get action when you are beat. period. thats why people dont put themselves in this situation. so how do you play your aj in position? limp? say someone limps with 55 and slowplays. check call the flop, check raise the turn, now you have 700 chips instead of 1000. things like that is why in a SNG you dont waste your chips early. the advantage better players have is very small with 1k chips and the escalating blinds. that is why survival is key. you make it down to the final 5, you are splitting 2 grand between 5 people. i think people give way too much credit to outplaying people on the early rounds. survive, then make money.

Re: STT basic strategy checklist
 

Let me say first that I can't speak to the play at the $200s. I only play up to 50/5.

Anyway, you say that I'll only get action if beat. This may be mostly true, though you'd certainly get called down by Ax or draws.

However, that's exactly my point. If you raise to 60, get 2 callers. Now the pot is 180. I'll bet 100 on the flop and anyone with 66, KQ, etc will give it up immediately. That's all I'm looking for. I don't want to get paid off. I want to win small-medium pots with minimal risk.

If called, I'll slow down. I'll often check behind on the turn and call a small bet on on the river. This depends on a lot of factors.

At the 200/15 level, maybe players won't let you get away with this, but at the lower levels players will just fit-or-fold on the flop without putting up a fight.

Re: STT basic strategy checklist
 

I hope this discussion continues.

I often wonder which strategy is better
1) Tight, survive - play strong poker at the bubble
2) Play early, aim to have a larger chipstack at the bubble, where you can do some damage.

I wonder what the probabilities are of ending up with 1000+ chips playing more "loose."

I have been experimenting with this strategy a little the last 3 days. Frankly, I don't think I'm very good anymore. I just don't think there's enough chips to play with (PP - 800 starting chips) to give you the folding equity required later on.

That being said, my hand selection could leave a lot to be desired. I aim to continue this idea - offset by some tight play in other games to maintain some bankroll. Perhaps reading Harrington on Hold'em would help...

IMO, tight play early gives you the credibility that you need to make that one blind steal that you need to have on that 100/200 level which ensures your survival. With the vast number of players multi-tabling, I'm just not sure if this is true. Any opinions?

If I play tight, and get to the 50/100 level with 650 chips I have found that I need to steal once this round, and twice the following round to make it in the money. If I am not successful at these three attempts then I will be OTM for sure.

Phil, how can I really open up the game more, and feel confident I'll be in the money as high as I currently doing? 40%.

Scuba

Re: STT basic strategy checklist
 

I don't usually double up early, but maybe win a couple of pots that are enough to keep me even until it's time to make a move. I usually steal my way to the bubble and have enough to pick my battle. I face my 'coinflip' and am either OTM or ITM.

When I double up early I feel like it doesn't makes that big a difference. Just a bit more of a buffer if I need it.

I'm also not usually a big stack (not until HU anyway).

Re: STT basic strategy checklist
 

[ QUOTE ]
tight play early gives you the credibility that you need to make that one blind steal that you need to have on that 100/200 level which ensures your survival.

[/ QUOTE ]

Blind steals and playing loosely in late position are 2 different things. Opponents who are aware will still respect a blind steal even if you called with JTo or raised with A9 earlier.

Be aware that I'm not talking about playing lots of hands, just a few more. I'm really talking about late position on the first 3 levels in an unraised pot. That's only 5-7 hands, and you'll still fold garbage like T2o, so you'll play even fewer than that.

As for your image, playing like this will help your chances of doubling up with AA or KK. If you play super tight, then raise big, you may not get paid off, even at party.

Most SnG players are terrible post flop. Other than check-raise traps, they really have nothing to offer. Take advantage of this.

A check or min-bet means they have nothing or a monster (usually nothing). Make a bet and be prepared to fold.

Once you get reasonable stack, you can put people to the test. If I have 1400 and I'm in a $200+ pot against someone with 500-600, I'll bet $200 on any flop if he checks. As Doyle and Mike McD said, the key to NL is put your opponent to a decision for all of *HIS* chips. I'm risking $200 to win the $200 pot. He is effectively risking his tournament to play the hand. It's not all about blind stealing.

Re: STT basic strategy checklist
 

[ QUOTE ]

I don't understand when 2+2 players are afraid to play hands like AJ in position because they don't want to get into trouble with it.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think it is more that people here suggest to new players that these are the kind of hands to steer clear of until they are more confident. They can be profitable but they can also be very costly if played badly.

Tim

Re: STT basic strategy checklist
 

I play very much like phil. From my current PT database, I have 5528 level 1 hands and have a tournament amount won of 25167 chips with a VPIP of 18%. At level 2 I have 5325 hands with 9140 chips with a VPIP of 16%. All these are from $55's and $109's. I'm courius what the numbers look like when you play super tight early. I would think they are lower, in which case playing those hands is a good thing. It will be interesting if we can put some numbers to this discussion.

Steve

Re: STT basic strategy checklist
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think it is more that people here suggest to new players that these are the kind of hands to steer clear of until they are more confident. They can be profitable but they can also be very costly if played badly.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a good point, though it's not always clear when people write guidelines that this is the intent.

It seems these guidelines are basically "How to be Profitable at NL SnGs without having to know anything about NL". This isn't bad because they certainly helped me when I was starting out.

The problem is that once people master these strategies, they try to refine the strategies (ie "Should I push with K4 on the bubble?") rather than try to improve their NL games. Then they can't figure out why they don't win above 10/1.

Of course, I played a lot of SnGs and still couldn't play NL to save my life. It's kind of like when you are a bad free throw shooter at basketball. You can play 10,000 games of baskball and your free throw shooting still might not improve. You just don't get that much practice during games. Instead, you need practice shooting 100s of free throws before games.

With NL, it's similiar. There's just not much "play" in these SNGs. Instead, play a couple 1000 hands at the 25NL 6max tables as practice, and you'll gain experience that would've taken forever in SnGs.

Re: STT basic strategy checklist
 

[ QUOTE ]
A check or min-bet means they have nothing or a monster (usually nothing). Make a bet and be prepared to fold.

Once you get reasonable stack, you can put people to the test. If I have 1400 and I'm in a $200+ pot against someone with 500-600, I'll bet $200 on any flop if he checks. As Doyle and Mike McD said, the key to NL is put your opponent to a decision for all of *HIS* chips. I'm risking $200 to win the $200 pot. He is effectively risking his tournament to play the hand. It's not all about blind stealing.

[/ QUOTE ]

hm.. so in position (button, co, co-1), limp in w/top 40%? then if checked/min bet to you on a two tone flop, bet pot?

1) How often do you succeed Phil?
2) And what happens if he calls, then bets 1/2 pot on the turn?
3) or checks on the turn (and you check) and bets 1/2 pot on the river (and you have middle pair)?

Re: STT basic strategy checklist
 

In Harrington on Hold 'em he talks about 3 different styles of play for tournament players.

Conservative
Aggressive
Super Aggressive

It seems to me that the optimal STT strategy is to progress through these styles of play as the tournament progresses. Early levels stick to the premium hands since the risk/reward ratio is not great, in most cases. As the blinds increase you open up to take advantage of tighter players who are squeezing their chips. Then as you get to the bubble you open up to steal as many of the large blinds as possible. You are able to open with many many hands. Optimal STT strategy is not optimal NL strategy and vice versa. Optimal NL strategy from an advanced player can be more successful than ABC STT strategy - I think everyone agrees with that.

Harrington goes on to state that the aggressie style of play requires more skill to play successfully and employing optimal NL strategy in a STT requires more skill as well and will be more successful than any formulaic method.

That being said new players starting out are well-served by the guides and the basic rules.

Re: STT basic strategy checklist
 

[ QUOTE ]
That being said new players starting out are well-served by the guides and the basic rules.

[/ QUOTE ]

true, but I don't think it is mentioned enough around here that that is a beginer stratagy that should be moved away from as soon as the skill is developed. The super tight play early is almost gospel around here and is wrong if you play well. The first round the blinds are small and the stacks are deep. Thats the ideal game conditions for a good nl player to take advantage of lesser players mistakes. When the blinds are large compared to the stacks the game is ruduced much more to luck. If I can outplay the bad players for their chips while the tight players are sitting out I don't have to get lucky later, I've already doubled.

Steve

Re: STT basic strategy checklist
 

[ QUOTE ]
hm.. so in position (button, co, co-1), limp in w/top 40%? then if checked/min bet to you on a two tone flop, bet pot?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll only bet the pot if its less than $100. Otherwise, I'll bet maybe 60% of the pot, minimum 100. Pot=125...I bet 100. Pot=200...I bet 125.

If there is a min-bet ahead of me, I might bet a bit more since this usually comes from someone who caught a small piece of the flop. They are betting to see if there 3rd pair is good, and will fold if someone shows strength.

In a side game, I usually do bet the pot or close to it. In a tournament, the stacks are not as deep, so I want to keep the pot small even if I have top pair.

The turn is trickier. If they bet into me, I'm going to fold most of the time.

When they check and I'm against more than 1 opponent, I'm usually going to check behind. If I'm bluffing, it's unlikely I'm going to be able to get multiple people to fold, especially since they already called once and now the pot is getting big.

If I have something (like top pair), I'll often still check behind multiple opponents. I'm probably ahead, but don't want to build an enornmous pot that I can't get away from. By showing weakness by checking, this encourages hands worse than mine to bet on the river. Since the pot is not huge, I can call most 1/2 pot sized bets on the river.

If against 1 opponent on the turn and they check, I will check behind a lot, but not all the time. I will bet if I strongly suspect a draw or if I have a decent hand or if I have a decent stack. I'll often bet 50% more chips than I bet on the flop.

If checked to me on the river by 1 opponent, I'll often check behind. However, I'm not opposed to value betting a good hand if both of us can afford it and there are no obvious draws.

Re: STT basic strategy checklist
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'd play even tigheter in the first few levels. Premium hands from first 3 or 4 positions, even AQs/AJs are questionable EP and folding isn't far from wrong if it is.
Axs I would only play behind several limpers in LP, the same for suited connectors.


[/ QUOTE ]

i think you're playing too tightly. most of the bad players who are splashing around with A6o (and there are a lot of them at the paradise 30+3) will lose their chips pretty quickly, so you've got to go get them with hands like AQs and 55 in EP. i would limp AJs utg as well. i agree that suited connectors and Axs are not playable until you're in MP or later with at least one limper in front.

[ QUOTE ]
with a big stack, don't just coast into the money.
open up a bit more and lean in favorable situations. on the bubble you can really lean against those that are obviously trying to make it into the money. your goal should be to win.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is all true. and it's much easier to do if you've busted somebody early.

Re: STT basic strategy checklist
 

[ QUOTE ]

With NL, it's similiar. There's just not much "play" in these SNGs. Instead, play a couple 1000 hands at the 25NL 6max tables as practice, and you'll gain experience that would've taken forever in SnGs.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's not entirely accurate - a no-limit cash game is very different from a single table tournament. If your cash game play mirrors your tournament play, then you are playing at least one of the two types of games very wrong. In a cash game, you should be willing to exploit small advantages much more often than you would in a tournament. Sklansky's article in the current 2+2 internet magazine and his book on tournaments offer advice on this same topic.

As for the other arguments posted in this thread, there is some merit to many of them:

1.) It is undesirable to be busted out of the tournament early pushing a small advantage, even with AK (see Tom McEvoy's "Tournament Poker" for discussion on playing AK early in a tournament). In the case of AK, you are a slight dog against any pocket pair, about even money against suited connectors, and at best a 3/1 favorite against random cards (3/1 in the case that your opponent shares a weaker ace or king). Don't get me wrong: AK is a great hand to have, especially late in a tournament, but it isn't worth risking your stack over early in a tournament.

2.) It is advantageous to build a stack early in a single table tournament if it is possible at a low risk. Every extra bit of the table's resources is helpful as play progresses - it allows you more flexibility on when to play.

3.) Exploiting your table image is important in all poker games, but in a tournament, I think it is generally better to be perceived as (and largely be) a tight-aggressive player. This gives you the street cred necessary to steal a blind or two when it really counts. I'll probably only bet hard with a marginal hand about 5-10% of the time - but that 5-10% of the time is critically important to my success, especially late in the tournament.

Good thread here, nice to read these thoughts from fellow tournament players.

Re: STT basic strategy checklist
 

[ QUOTE ]
If your cash game play mirrors your tournament play, then you are playing at least one of the two types of games very wrong. In a cash game, you should be willing to exploit small advantages much more often than you would in a tournament.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point. My intention wasn't to tell people to play side games and tournaments the same way. Maybe this was unclear.

I see a lot of advice telling players to adjust their play in tournaments (ie avoid close gambles for all your chips). However, many players don't know how to play NL in the first place, so advising them to adjust their play for tournaments is pointless and/or dangerous.

If you want to learn how to play NL, the quickest way is to play in the 6max side games. Once you've done this, adjusting to tournaments is relatively easy.

Re: STT basic strategy checklist
 

[ QUOTE ]

When they check and I'm against more than 1 opponent, I'm usually going to check behind.


[/ QUOTE ]

I feel your check-a-lot-on-turn strategy can often reduce the pot you win. A lot of player would more gladly call your bet on the turn , because they want to see the river. If you bet only on the river then these people will fold there if the river misses them, and you will win less.
So the basic strategies "don't give free cards" and "collect the money on the turn" should not be completely thrown away.

Re: STT basic strategy checklist
 

Here's a variation I use on the super tight early vs. limp question.

One of the first reads I take at the table (10+1 Party SNGs) is who doesn't play at all in the first four or five or even 10 hands. They are the ones I watch closely when they do start to fire up the agression and whose bets I respond to with the deepest suspicion and utmost care.

Conversely, I will usually look for the right cards or position in the first half dozen hands so I can limp. That satisfies my desire to see if I can get lucky and get off to an early stack lead. What I also like is that it gives whoever the most dangerous players are a completely wrong read on me as I settle quickly back into ultimate tight mode for the rest of the opening levels. The speed of the tournaments being what they are it is often not until a critical hand in the middle or late stages of the tournament before they get a chance to find out what my true standards are for opening hands and making aggressive raises.

Excellent points, Phil
 

Phil has made many good points here, re opening up your early game and learning to outplay your opponents. I, too, have played the super-tight mode in early going and while my ITM% was very good, I was getting way too many 3rds and not enough 1st place finishes and my ROI was not as good as it could have been. I simply was not accumulating enough chips early on to get an effective stack once it got 3-4 handed. I've opened up my game some now and the improvement in results has been dramatic.

You need some chips for the 50/100 level to make effective steals and have good FE. For Party SNGs I aim to get at least 1500 by the 50/100 level. I don't want to be in fold or push mode at that time. That's usually not going to be accomplished limping with Jacks and tossing lesser pocket pairs away. You need to get involved in small pots that you can steal with a flop bet and others where you get a big hand and double through. Phil has done a good job explaining how it's done. If I can double in the first three rounds I am virtually assured of getting to the final 4 bubble. As Phil said, you don't need to get wild and play every hand to get a good early stack. It only takes a key one or two.

Sometimes that means limping UTG with 33, risking a raise behind to flop a set that doubles you through or playing 75s on the button and stealing on the flop when it's checked to you. Throw in that semi-bluff raise when you think your oppoenent is just making a continuation bet. All these little things that I would never do when I played the rock can add up to having that stack that's not in push or fold mode once the blinds get up to that point where the rocks open up their game. If you fail the first few times and your stack is knocked down, you can retreat into the premium hands only mode until you're forced to push or fold.

Actually, some of the easiest players to outplay are the ones who follow the super-tight advice too closely and who are otherwise good players. You almost always know exactly where you're at with these folding-machines. These guys just don't risk chips in the early going without the best of it. If they miss, they will fold to a bet and if they raise they usually have you beat.

Re: STT basic strategy checklist
 

It's interesting to me that almost all the responses so far have focused on "what cards should I play", when cards are, at most, 1/3 of the SNG equation. The way to outplay your opponents in a SNG is by understanding stacks/blinds and position.

Re: STT basic strategy checklist
 

[ QUOTE ]
I feel your check-a-lot-on-turn strategy can often reduce the pot you win. A lot of player would more gladly call your bet on the turn , because they want to see the river. If you bet only on the river then these people will fold there if the river misses them, and you will win less.
So the basic strategies "don't give free cards" and "collect the money on the turn" should not be completely thrown away.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is all true. In a deep side game, checking the turn with a good hand is usually wrong.

However, my goal early in a tournament is to win small/medium pots without risking my whole stack. The best way to do this is to keep the pot small relative to the stack sizes.

Yes, if they are on a draw, I will win less with this strategy. I tried to price out draws on the flop, but if they come along, oh well. I'm willing to give this up in order to reduce the risk to my stack.

However, I will win more if they have a medium hand like 2nd pair if they bet into me on the river. I also see a lot of river bluffs. Alternatively, I will also lose less if they are slowplaying a monster.

I definately don't want to say that this strategy is best for everyone against all opponents. For my game, I feel like it works well.