Preflop Bot
 

I am generally a lurker here, posted a few times. I am fearful of getting flamed but I trust the thoughts of most of the 2+2ers and respect your opinions, so I felt I should write this post and see what happens.

I have developed a Party Poker preflop bot; it does one thing and one thing only, it folds hands that, given the relevant circumstances, should be folded. Thats all it does; it does not call, check or raise; it does not know what the "flop" is and therefore does not play after the flop.

My purpose in creating this was two-fold (pun intended): 1) it was an interesting project to do - I used the MS .net framework and 2) I thought it would be helpful to my game, and particularly for multi-tabling purposes, to not have to physically push the "fold" button all the time and to enforce a little discipline on me.

The program right now is about 95% effective; there are a few bugs that will be easy to correct. It has proven to improve my discipline and it does make it easier to play multiple tables.

My questions for the zoo are these:

1. Do you consider this ethical? I think it is because the computer does not process anything more difficult than I can process in my brain; the only advantage it gives me is the enforcement of discipline; and, quite frankly, it certainly does not provide me with anymore advantage than someone using PT or similar program. To me, it is different from an ethical perspective than a full-fledged bot. What do you think?

2. Do you think there is a market for this type of program? I have not used, nor will I use, Winholdem, but I do know that this program has a completely different purpose -- all it does it fold obvious folding hands. My fear about selling this to anyone is that if it became commonplace in any respect, Party would likely crack downa and stop it and since I have a day job, I wouldn't have time to do lots of rewrites; also, I don't want tables full of tight players. For this reason, if I decided to sell it, I would limit its distribution. Also, I would comply with all 2+2 advertising rules and policies; I'd let the zoo know it was avaialble and thats it.

3. Do you have any other thoughts on this idea? I'm sure someone else has done this already, but I haven't seen any similar posts.

Thanks and please be kind (or flame away if the holidays are getting you down and need to relieve some tension).

YoureToast

Re: Preflop Bot
 

If the zoo decides it's ethical.. I'm first in line for a copy!

Re: Preflop Bot
 

Noooooooooooooooooo!

Preflop is the reason that many people on this forum can make better than 1 bb/100. If this became widespread which is probably inevitable, the tables would simply become too tight for most of us to overcome the rake.

Re: Preflop Bot
 

Yes, and this is a big fear of mine....I would not let it become widespread and strictly limit the number of copies out there. Perhaps have some sort of subscription based license so when the limit it reached, those not renewing could be replaced by other interested parties. Trust me, I have a lot more interest in keeping the tables loose generally than in making money from this thing (although a little of both would be nice, no doubt.)

Re: Preflop Bot
 

You're going to get 500 PMs asking for a copy.

I say keep it to yourself and enjoy it.

Re: Preflop Bot
 

Aside from the fact that I fear that this would make the tables very tight, I think it violates the anti-bot agreements with the poker rooms. While I see your point about the fact that this initial PF decision is a routine one requiring little thought, it is still a decision to be made by a person. I would guess that maybe you could write a program that gives you a recommendation as to folding PF or not, but doesn't actually do the action. Not sure if that violates the TOS or not. However, given PP's recent crackdown on winholdem and their ability to take screenshots, I wouldn't risk it. my $.02

Re: Preflop Bot
 

It violates anti-bot agreements and will make clueless people tighter. If you absolutely HAVE to distribute this crap atleast make the default settings see 60% of all flops.

Re: Preflop Bot
 

Bots are bad, period, end of discussion.

I don't care if it only does preflop action and only foldsd hands, it is still standardizing the game too much and taking the human thought process out of the equation.

You said it yourself that you often have a hard time restraining yourself in hands. A program like this would eliminate that need for restraint and would take away lots of opportunities to take advantage of tilted players. Poker is as much a mental game as it is a game of numbers. The more bots and progams of that nature in place, the more standardized the game becomes and really it just ruins the game.

Plus as stated before this will clearly violate the no bot policy of poker rooms. Why even risk it if your program does something that you can do very easily yourself anyhow? And why take the chance of improving so many fishes games? And why take the chance of potentially folding a monster when your program bugs out.

The whole mindset that "the program is only doing something I could do anyhow" is exactly the thought process that the creators of winholdem in the like have used. It obviously took someone time to create the program and to develop a game theory that they would employ if playing themselves so the program is really doing no more than what they would do. The fatal flaw is that it is doing more than what they could do themselves as it takes the human psyche out of the equation and thus it has something you can't do yourself.

Stay away from bots and don't give programs like this out to anyone. I wouldn't use it yourself either. Totally unnecessary and likely to just get you banned.

Re: Preflop Bot
 

[ QUOTE ]
It violates anti-bot agreements and will make clueless people tighter. If you absolutely HAVE to distribute this crap atleast make the default settings see 60% of all flops.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. While I'd rather you get rid of this program entirely, this should be the final line of defense for anyone who creates a bot and does let it out into the wild; make sure the default settings are horrible, and force the user to change them.

Re: Preflop Bot
 

This is bad, bad, bad for too many reasons to list. Don't do it.....

The last thing you need is for a bunch of ><))*> to get this and all our $$$ dries up.

Re: Preflop Bot
 

Here's my two cents.

1. Don't market this as a "bot." Market it as a "software skin" with added functionality. Said functionality being the ability to predetermine preflop actions, based on a "user-specified" set of rules.

Include a table of all possible starting hands, and have the user decide what action to take by checking off the appropriate choice based on position, pot size etc. Save the choices to an encrypted preferences file that can't be shared with other copies of the software. And don't include any suggestions other than telling the buyers that they can find advice on starting hands in poker books and on the Web. The appeal should lie in the ability to cut down on button-clicking, not in the ability to make calculations...

2. Include the option to modify those predetermined actions in real time. This will keep the fishes in play.

For example, say you're at x number of tables... your software skin could have a display of the cards you've been dealt and what the upcoming action will be, along with other relevant data, all in one spot. So for two tables:

<font color="green"> Table 1 </font> Kd Kh <font color="blue"> Action: </font> Fold Check Call <font color="red">Raise </font> ManualPlay
<font color="green"> Table 2 </font> Ac 6s <font color="blue"> Action: </font> <font color="red"> Fold </font> Check Call Raise ManualPlay

(To simplify things, I've left out relevant data such as position, number of callers etc.)

So a fish, having allowed the software to fold ace-rag twice in a row before the flop comes with two aces, decides that aces are hot tonight, and he's going to play his ace no matter what, goddammit. So he can change the predetermined action before it gets to him by clicking on ManualPlay or Call. +EV for the rest of us who know what we're doing.

Also, it would be cool to have something like this for SNGs and MTTs that will factor in blind levels etc.

EDIT: Just to clarify, I am against bots such as Winholdem and Robowhatever. I consider that cheating. My post here is simply about automating preflop button clicks that I would do myself anyway, based on knowledge acquired from books and the forums here.

Re: Preflop Bot
 

I'd be interested in the "general setup" code, mostly out of curiosity. I am not interested in the logic that fold hands specifically, but rather in the overall architechture of the program.

Could you give us a few tidbits. Is it based on screen scraping or does it listen to the network traffic?

Where this would be truly interesting for me is in automated data mining, for instance of SnG's. Now I manually have to open the tourney tables and thus can't let it run overnight. A simple software that navigated the lobby would be great.

Re: Preflop Bot
 

I really hope that neither you or any other 2+2er uses this. I guarantee you its against the against Party's rules. This cannot possibly worth the risk of having your party bankroll confiscated. I am also completely against it because it not only would tighten up a lot of horrible players - why on earth would you want to do that?? and because it greatly reduces the only real challenge of multitabling, which is managing action on several tables.

Besides, if you're a winning player, would it really be worth tigthening up the masses so you could sell a couple hundred copies at $20 or $30 a pop? You can make that in a couple months of honest play. We poker players like to think in terms of the long run, so look at that way. Would you want this program or this idea to get out there and be widely used? I sure don't, and I doubt you do either.

Re: Preflop Bot
 

I would like to add that I applaud your effort to ask everyone here about it, I for one certainly appreciate.

Re: Preflop Bot
 

1) No way you'll limit its sales--how foolish do you think we are?

2) This type of PF Bot can only make a player worse--NO Think-NO Pay.

3) Players, good and bad, will catch on and play will adjust.

4) If you don't understand starting hands, you're in the dark and it won't matter. If you do understand starting hands it matters even less.

5)Anything can sell--check the internet ads for Viagra,Cialis,Cortislim,etc. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] Your choice.

regards,
carlo

Re: Preflop Bot
 

I started a project exactly like this, got it to scrape and then realized that as soon as I gave it to one person, EVERYONE would have it in a matter of time. Shift+Del the project folder. There's also the TOS and possible loss of bankroll.

Please do not release this... it may even bring out the old IRC warrior in me on any machine I find it on [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Preflop Bot
 

[ QUOTE ]
I am also completely against it because it not only would tighten up a lot of horrible players - why on earth would you want to do that?? and because it greatly reduces the only real challenge of multitabling, which is managing action on several tables.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're coming to a black/white conclusion when the reality is gray. What if poker sites didn't have buttons for predetermined preflop action? That would make multitabling harder, but would it be more fair? And is it fair that some players can afford multiple 1600x1200 LCD displays so tables don't overlap? Is that fair to someone who's trying to multitable on a 17 inch monitor and fighting to manage cascading tables?

What's wrong with giving someone the software equivalent of a bigger monitor with a little button clicking automation?

Re: Preflop Bot
 

As far as it being "ethical", I think it clearly is. Anyone claiming that it isn't is just saying that our of self-interest and fear. If a bot such as this isn't "ethical" than neither is using PokerTracker nor reading a poker book or using any other external tool to improve your game.

I don't think distributing it is a particularly horrible thing. People are lazy. Anyone smart or ambitious enough to use it and set it up would be ambitious enough to eventually improve their game to the point where it wasn't necessary. People who gambool and are undisciplined aren't going to use it. The only money it would take off the table would be from players who would quickly take that money off the table themselves anyway.

I think marketing/selling it would be a huge mistake, though. It's clearly in violation of the terms and conditions of assorted sites. While you could make it expressly clear to customers that once they buy it, buyer beware (as far as possible crackdowns on users by Party et al) you would constantly be dealing with angry, angry customers who had their account frozen and/or seized by Party. You don't want that and couldn't charge a price high enough (given the limited scope and functionality of what it offers) to deal with that nightmare.

Re: Preflop Bot
 

One other thing: people are overestimating the appeal of automation. Yes, I know this is about making money for us, but there's a ton of people out there that love gambling and the adrenalin rush it gives. They're always going to want to push the buttons themselves. There's no thrill in having a machine make all your decisions.

There's a certain thrill in doing things yourself and making your own decisions. Just ask any teenager. There will always be a ton of people who will never buy a car with an automatic transmission even with all the convenience it provides. The feel is just different.

Re: Preflop Bot
 

I think it's against Party rules, and rightfully so as it is best to draw the line in a tough place than in one that I personally don't have a problem with.

As for fears of fish drying up, there is 0 chance that they will be interested in a stupid program that does outrageous things like folding 57s preflop UTG.

Ethically I think it's fine, but I don't think Party will agree with you.

Lori

Re: Preflop Bot
 

Gusly, the thing is, you don't want the fish to understand that tightening up pre-flop is a good thing. A bot designed for that at least suggests that its profitable. I want those idiots playing 27s until the day they die "because its sooted." You are right about the button pushing though, that little thrill of theirs pays my rent every month. Thats a good point, comforting as well. I drive a stick and 4-table on my 1600x1200 LCD, simply because they both make their each respective activity. The manual makes driving more fun, and the monitor makes poker more profitable. While automation wouldn't be much fun for the fish, I still don't anything that disturbs the balance in their world by changing the way they play.

Re: Preflop Bot
 

you don't want the fish to understand that tightening up pre-flop is a good thing.

Most fish understand this. They don't care.

Lori

Re: Preflop Bot
 

a lot of responses are leaning toward "protect my bankroll. do not release this gold mine to the fish i prey upon!".

this is absurd. fish are fish because they know no other way. they are interested in winning lots of pots, apparently with no regard to the many they lose. if a "fish" was interested in improving their game, it wouldn't matter if they got their hands on this program, or simply a good book...they would improve somehow, someway.

i used to be the one who played any Ace, any position(sometimes any face), any 2 suited, etc...i actually fared pretty well in my first Vegas Hold'em sessions playing this type of thing. i really thought i was the bomb. then, while waiting for the plane for the trip home, i scanned through a poker book(can't remember which one, but it was really rudimentary and basic). i bought the book, and read it on the plane trip back. i was kicking myself for not buying one before going to Binion's and playing with the big boys at the $2/4 table...oh, the money that had slipped through my fingers! well, long story short, i was determined to be good at Hold'em, and i had the internet as a resource. i simply took the time to browse different strategy-type sites...yada, yada, yada. i'm a fish NO MORE! (though i can be a bit of a LAG at times [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]). and i didn't need a bot to do it!

cheers!

Re: Preflop Bot
 

I have extensive experience with bots and MMORPGs. I bought a Sims Online bot for $100. It could make money in game about 60x faster than a human could and would run non-stop for 12+ hours on end. I used it to make over $25,000 real cash. The bot creator sold 50 copies and made $5,000 and spent the whole time modifying, tweaking, and adjusting the software over many months. Those of us who owned it created such a huge influx of money in the game we basically collapsed the economy (regular players were delighted to make $20,000 simoleans in a day - we were making $10,000,000) which resulted in the value of money we had dropping 10 fold (what we could sell for $40 two months ago was now selling for $4). Eventually word got out and all of us got banned from the game (they started checking how fast players were making money and then looking at what programs we had running). At the time I was banned I had over $4,000 worth of simoleans on my characters. If he'd kept it to himself he probably could have made $200,000+.

Right now I have my own crafting bot for Everquest II. While it's not as nice as the Sims Online bot I bought, it's undetectable because no one has any copies and Sony would have no clue what .exe file or windows process to scan for on my computer. Sure I could sell it for $50 and probably make $5000 (minus all the hours spent helping and supporting moron users) before we all get caught or the economy collapses - or I can keep it to myself and make $25,000.

Like I said, keep it. Game economies are like the fish ponds. One single person can't dry up the pond, but multiple people can.

Re: Preflop Bot
 

[ QUOTE ]
a lot of responses are leaning toward "protect my bankroll. do not release this gold mine to the fish i prey upon!".

this is absurd. fish are fish because they know no other way. they are interested in winning lots of pots, apparently with no regard to the many they lose. if a "fish" was interested in improving their game, it wouldn't matter if they got their hands on this program, or simply a good book...they would improve somehow, someway.

i used to be the one who played any Ace, any position(sometimes any face), any 2 suited, etc...i actually fared pretty well in my first Vegas Hold'em sessions playing this type of thing. i really thought i was the bomb. then, while waiting for the plane for the trip home, i scanned through a poker book(can't remember which one, but it was really rudimentary and basic). i bought the book, and read it on the plane trip back. i was kicking myself for not buying one before going to Binion's and playing with the big boys at the $2/4 table...oh, the money that had slipped through my fingers! well, long story short, i was determined to be good at Hold'em, and i had the internet as a resource. i simply took the time to browse different strategy-type sites...yada, yada, yada. i'm a fish NO MORE! (though i can be a bit of a LAG at times [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]). and i didn't need a bot to do it!

cheers!

[/ QUOTE ]

It's the mediocre players getting a hold of this that worries me. The more people that cross the line from losing a small amount/breaking even to winning players means the faster the fish money dries up.

Re: Preflop Bot
 

[ QUOTE ]
As far as it being "ethical", I think it clearly is

[/ QUOTE ]

It clearly is not. Using a bot is against most sites' user agreements. It clearly is cheating. Whether you want to do it or not is up to you.

Re: Preflop Bot
 

I actually think you are on to something here if you re-engineer it to NOT push buttons for you.

Just for arguments sake, let's say you have a program that is based on Hilger's starting hands charts for low limit hold 'em. The program monitors all of your games in one separate window. The program tells you your hand, position, action up to that point, makes a recomendation for action, and has a button for each of the three decisions you can make. This wouldn't be a bot according to Party's terms, but would instead be an automation of the recommended starting hands charts - an improvement because you don't have to look away from your screen and find that information on the handmade chart you crafted.

Anyway, if you take the "bot" out of the equation, I think you are headed in the right direction. As long as you are pushing the buttons, you are still a human making a decision based on the best information possible.

Re: Preflop Bot
 

It is unethical because it violates the Party TOS.

If you want to use it, fine but don't spread it for reasons already stated above.

Re: Preflop Bot
 

[ QUOTE ]
It is unethical because it violates the Party TOS.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're going a bit too far with your definition of unethical. Without getting into too much of a philosophical discussion, I'll just say that ethics and legality are separate and distinct. The illegal act can most certainly be the ethical act. Put plainly, doing the right thing can involve breaking the law...

So... is the preflop bot unethical? Maybe, depending on your point of view, but not because of Party's TOS. Not to mention that the TOS are written so vaguely that Pokertracker can be interpreted to be against their TOS. People were worried about it and emailed them to make sure PT was okay, and Party said yes it is, but they could easily change their minds tomorrow.

A very interesting response....
 

BradleyT and everyone else here, I really appreciate your responses. It seems that most of the fear here is the widespread distribution of it -- and that is a concern I have. A few things I am thinking about are these:

What if I only distributed it to 2+2ers....or those that could verify that they've read about my product on 2+2. This would likely prevent it from getting in the hands of idiots, or, frankly, average players (who I think it would help the most).

I could distribute it with very loose rules or no rules at all.

I could distribute it only to people I could verify (using PT or something) are tight players (this would be problematic b/c then the buyer would have to give me their userID and I'm not sure they'd want to do that.

Finally and this is my favorite but least practical, I could limit it to 3/6 games or lower. Since I tend to play 15/30 mostly (and since this product would be least valuable in those games) and some 10/20 and 5/T, this would alleviate some of "my" concern, but not the concerns of those that play 3/6 and below.

Somebody mentioned that they didn't believe I'd limit its distribution; while I agree that it would be tempting to sell out if the profits were great, I think a subscription based licensing arrangement could help me increase yearly profits, while at the same time not doing damage to the industry. 200 or even more players having this product, people who learned abou it on this forum, for example, would hardly put a dent in the "fishyness" of Party.

Again, I am not at all saying I'm going to do this (my wife is having our second baby tomorrow so I will be quite busy for a while anyway); I will tell you, however, that if I do, you will be the first to know and the first to have an opportunity to try it. I am so grateful for all the responses.

YoureToast

Re: Preflop Bot
 

I haven't read all the replies.

I would say that this is unethical because, as you say, it enforces your discipline. Thus, it is an automated software that improves your game. Basically, if you could fold preflop all of these hands without the bot 100% of the time, it would be no big deal. But i think that because no human can actually do that, this is unethical.

Re: Preflop Bot
 

[ QUOTE ]
But i think that because no human can actually do that, this is unethical.

[/ QUOTE ]
No human could datamine tens of thousands of observed hand histories from Party either, but it seems accepted as completely ethical here.

Not bashing your point, just wondering where one draws the line between ethical and unethical. Is automation unethical? At what level?

Re: Preflop Bot
 

That's a good point subby. However, I feel that the PT datamining is a lot different from this. PT datamining is like looking at a starting hand chart. The info is there, but the human mind must do the thinking and put the info to action. For example, we get many posts on this board and on the PT forum saying, "i've got all this data, how do i use it?". This bot is taking the human element out of the transferring the info to the action. Thus, it completely removes the human element, as the bot would play the same based on the same info whether the human was drunk, sleepy, normal, dead, etc. whereas the human would not.

Basically, i think the line should be drawn at the point that it removes the human element of USING the information given.

Re: Preflop Bot
 

Good response and I think I tend to agree with you. There is a lot of potential in this guy's idea, as long as it isn't making the decisions for you.

Re: A very interesting response....
 

Why would a tight player want this thing? I wouldn't; I can fold KJo to a raise with or without this bot thingie, TYVM. Does it take how LAGgy the raiser is into account, too? If not, well, I hope it gets widespread so the TAGs can autofold to my EP A9s raises all day. Does it do blind defense based on the characteristics of the button/SB? If not, it just sucks.

On top of that, you add the chance that Party freezes your account; considering that poker's a second job for me at this point, I don't think that the risk divided by the potential gain is very +EV for me.

OK, so we've narrowed the thing's utility down to people who like gambling. Would any of them buy this? I doubt it, unless they want to get better already and then they're not the audience I care about.

Basically, I don't think your bot's all that interesting and the risk far outweighs the gain. Good luck, though.

On the other hand, as a former EQ player I'd definitely buy Bradley's EQ2 crafter [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: A very interesting response....
 

If you read the most experienced response, you'll see it wasn't about widespread distribution, it was about a few high-priced partners. Even then, it turned out to be -EV.

Your software certainly isn't worth $5k, so I don't see why you're even considering "limited distribution" (whatever that comes to mean). You won't make any significant money, and you won't improve our play -- 2+2ers prone to tilt will have more leaks than just preflop. If someone wants to automate their play, let them write their own.

Re: Preflop Bot
 

Well, right off the bat, this "bot" wouldn't cross the line according to your terms. Why? Because it doesn't completely remove the human element. It would only act preflop. And postflop decision-making is much more complex and valuable than preflop decision making.

And going one step further (or back, if you like), making the user define which hands to fold makes it completely ethical. How would inputting which hands you want to play preflop into this piece of software be any more unethical than referring to a chart next to your monitor?

Re: Preflop Bot
 

[ QUOTE ]
And going one step further (or back, if you like), making the user define which hands to fold makes it completely ethical. How would inputting which hands you want to play preflop into this piece of software be any more unethical than referring to a chart next to your monitor?

[/ QUOTE ]
Humans tilt, get tired, etc.. Starting hand bots don't. I *know* I am not supposed to limp with Axs UTG, but I just had my Aces cracked and am pissed. Oh great, the pot gets capped...well might as well call...c'mon 6%!!! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: A very interesting response....
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why would a tight player want this thing? I wouldn't; I can fold KJo to a raise with or without this bot thingie, TYVM. Does it take how LAGgy the raiser is into account, too? If not, well, I hope it gets widespread so the TAGs can autofold to my EP A9s raises all day. Does it do blind defense based on the characteristics of the button/SB? If not, it just sucks.


[/ QUOTE ]

I was waiting for someone to make this point. I was just too lazy to type it out.

Re: A very interesting response....
 

Anyone can look at 2+2 and the good 2+2 players wouldnt want it. If i were you i would just keep it tomyself. If you realease one of these and some other programer gets wind of it doing good and selling alot of copies they will make their own and probably sell it freely to anyone.