How Stupid Are They ????
 

I'm not sure this is a psychology post. It's more of an emerging social behavior phenomenom, one that I have noticed.

With the explosive growth of poker, and poker literature, I would have thought that more players would know the difference between logical explanation and urban legend. What I am seeing on online games and hearing in cardrooms, more than I was a year or so ago, is borderline mental retardation. I've heard two adults openly discussing the frequency of bad hands dealt by female versus male dealrs, and coming to an agreement that the women deal better cards. I've seen people online having a three way conversation about the frequency of receiving AK in the hole at one site versus another, and agreeing that such-and-such a site is "definitely the best." The examples are endless. It is mind-numbing stupidity on a scale that I thought could only exist on the Simpsons. I am seeing/hearing it a lot more now than previously.

Is it me, or has society been administered a gigantic STUPID pill? I'm not talking about micro-limit newbies, I'm talking about people who should know better...intuitively. Is there a bad drug problem I have not read about? This is like listening to people argue the influence of whitchcraft over zoning laws. It's starting to freak me out.

Re: How Stupid Are They ????
 

Perhaps you are just a better observer now than in the past.

Re: How Stupid Are They ????
 

You did know that all that money ending up in your account had to come from somewhere right?

Re: How Stupid Are They ????
 

When I used to play BJ, there was a silly belief that you should not play against a female dealer who wore a lot of jewelry. That never made sense to me as she probably got that jewelry from big tips from winning players....

I think it is the population explosion in general. I can find many more people these days who can talk about more than just ESPN stats and how the ____ are doing, but in reality there are many many more of those people who can't.

It is everywhere, more people are driving safer, but the numbers of people who are truely dangerous on the roads has increased too and they get more exposure than ever before due to sheer volume.

Re: How Stupid Are They ????
 

Most of society is stupid. Think about how dumb the average person is. By definition half of the people in the world are dumber. I think you are just noticing it now because more average people are playing poker.

Re: How Stupid Are They ????
 

When I used to play blackjack (back when there was a +V in counting), I wouldn't play against asian female dealers.

Not superstitious--they just looked evil to me... [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Re: How Stupid Are They ????
 

These people probably have been thinking, reasoning and deducing illogically their entire lives. Their lives now include poker, and they bring their habits with them. You just happen to be in a position now to hear what they say and see what they do.

This is why we have the very important rule not to give poker lessons at the table. Giving lessons about the rules of the cardroom is okay, just don't let anyone teach these players how to think and play any better than they already do. I need their poor play to support my learning curve.

Re: How Stupid Are They ????
 

The worst poker player I ever saw played every day with me in the early 1980s. He lost virtually every day. We were playing 15-30 draw and he lsot $50,000 a year. He played stupid.

But he was a bright man. He was paying $10,000 a week in income taxes in those days, so he had a pretty good income. He also did well in the stock market and invested in real estate in Santa Barbara. He just couldn't get the hang of poker.

We're all stupid about some things. Lots of intelligent people believe in angels, or ghosts, or Martians, or luck, or women dealers. Lots of intelligent people don't understand the Bill of Rights or gravity or geometry or photosynthesis or how the Xerox machine works and, therefore, might have peculiar ideas on those subjects.

There were, apparently, 45,000 people playing poker one night on Party. You're going to hear some unusual things from a few people whenever 45,000 people get together.

Re: How Stupid Are They ????
 

Even smart people just can't understand some basic concepts in probability, and it's usually the concept of independent events. There is a guy I work with who did Ivy League undergrad and then got his MBA from Harvard. Yesterday he was trying to explain to me how the casino would have a much bigger advantage in blackjack if the dealer only dealt himself one card initially instead of 2. And his reasoning had something to do with the "fact" that his odds of getting blackjack increase because he hasn't seen his second card until after you have acted.

Re: How Stupid Are They ????
 

"No peek" or "european hole card rules" drastically increase the house edge in BJ. (Though it doesn't matter if the card is dealt before or after the players finish, all that matters is that the house doesn't peek for BJ.)

Re: How Stupid Are They ????
 

Yes...this sounds like European rules BJ....and it does give the house a stronger advantage.


I forget what the specific rules are...but if the dealer doesn't peak underneath and then the player splits his 8's or something then the player is running the risk of busting 2x before the dealer knows he has blackjack.
If the dealer had peaked first then the player can only lose 1 bet.
I think that is the logic behind it...but am not positive.

Re: How Stupid Are They ????
 

I'm amazed and frustrated at the general level of stupidity out there and am at a total loss to explain it.
It really isn't THAT hard...yet there are millions and millions of people out there who think that they're chances of beating roulette are improved if they bet 12 numbers throughout the board in some pretty pattern and that betting just one number CLEARLY has worse odds.


It's this kind of idiocy that is a big reason why I frequently dislike playing B&M poker.

The people that are complete idiots are the one's you want in your game...but it's difficult for me to like them as people if I can't respect them due to their extremely stubborn incompetence.


Additionally, it is neither advantageous nor polite to make the appropriate corrections to their flawed logic and that frustrates me too.


I am more likely to personally like someone who "gets it" (such as many on these forums) but, of course, these are also the people that I don't want playing in the same game as me. and it's not terribly appropriate nor advantageous to discuss SSHE or HEFAP at the table.


I can steer the conversation at the table towards other topics of course...such as the NFL playoffs or Michael Bolton or J-Lo's big ass or the tasty Chicken tenders at the snack bar. But, without fail, the conversation will usually come back to "How can I expect to win when he plays 92 like that? did you see that?" and "Hey buddy....you really shouldn't raise AK like that. You know it's a drawing hand don't you?"

If i answer the question honestly then I'm either educating the fish OR starting an argument OR both.
If I answer dishonestly like "yeah...I know. I was just trying something different." then I feel, well, dishonest.

Re: How Stupid Are They ????
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think it is the population explosion in general.

It is everywhere, more people are driving safer, but the numbers of people who are truely dangerous on the roads has increased too and they get more exposure than ever before due to sheer volume.

[/ QUOTE ]


Ding!

Re: How Stupid Are They ????
 

[ QUOTE ]
Is it me, or has society been administered a gigantic STUPID pill?

[/ QUOTE ]

Man, I have thought this my entire life!

Re: How Stupid Are They ????
 

If they want to be sheep, they'll continue to not gain knowledge nor better themselves.

In the game of poker, I don't see it as a problem. The more fish, the better.

Re: How Stupid Are They ????
 

[ QUOTE ]
I've seen people online having a three way conversation about the frequency of receiving AK in the hole at one site versus another, and agreeing that such-and-such a site is "definitely the best."

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like a good advertising scheme to me.

Re: How Stupid Are They ????
 

As always, well put.

I know I need them to make the game profitable, but if I am having dinner with a couple of doctors and the discussion moves to advanced cardio surgical techniques, I would do the right thing and shut up. I doubt it would cross my mind to suggest that since one of my friends had an unsuccessful bypass performed by a female surgeon, or had his operation done at 1PM, that the chances of having a bad procedure is higher if the doctor is female or if the procedure happens in early afternoon. The surgeons would have every right to respond with a phsyical attack,doing humanity a favor by burying a fork in my eye.

I guess what confuses me is the admission of stupidity. They advertise a lack of common sense. It's like they seek each other out. For the mentally challenged, apparently there is safety in numbers.

Thanks for your comments. Now that I've broadcast my frustration, I can get on with life.

Re: How Stupid Are They ????
 

[ QUOTE ]
I guess what confuses me is the admission of stupidity. They advertise a lack of common sense. It's like they seek each other out. For the mentally challenged, apparently there is safety in numbers.


[/ QUOTE ]

They could also be nervous and trying to use words and ideas they've picked up watching poker on TV to sound more confident. As you mentioned above, put two or more TV fish together and they help each other feel safe.

I've always found it a welcome event to hear someone say "I've got to call (that 3-bet) because I've got pot odds (in the SB). Just like this time I was watching WPT on TV." [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: How Stupid Are They ????
 

[ QUOTE ]
Is it me, or has society been administered a gigantic STUPID pill?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're just paying closer attention--for whatever reason, I have no idea. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: How Stupid Are They ????
 

[ QUOTE ]
If I answer dishonestly like "yeah...I know. I was just trying something different." then I feel, well, dishonest.

[/ QUOTE ]

*gasp* Lying at a poker table? Unbelievable! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: How Stupid Are They ????
 

Ryden, the difference between surgeons and poker players is that if I know nothing about surgery I can't actually do it... but people can say the stupidest stuff and then drag in a pot.

Re: How Stupid Are They ????
 

"women dealers"

I have actually seen some of these.

-Michael

Re: How Stupid Are They ????
 

It's probably because your poker knowledge and skill continues to grow at a steady rate and the fish will forever be stranded at the same level of stupidity.
The fish haven't changed, you have. On your 1,000th hand of poker a statement someone (who is playing poker for the first time) made to you can seem "odd". On your 10,000th hand, that same statement (by someone who is playing poker for the first time) will seem "ridiculous". By your 500,000th hand, that same statement made by the same 1st timer will be so mind-numbingly stupid that you find yourself unable to even comprehend the plane of retardation from which this person is formulating thoughts. And it'll just keep getting worse.

Re: How Stupid Are They ????
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's this kind of idiocy that is a big reason why I frequently dislike playing B&M poker.

The people that are complete idiots are the one's you want in your game...but it's difficult for me to like them as people if I can't respect them due to their extremely stubborn incompetence.

[/ QUOTE ]

They give you money to like them. It's like being a prostitute but without the STDs.

Re: How Stupid Are They ????
 

It's gambling. Gambling just brings out the stupidity in people.

Re: How Stupid Are They ????
 

Ahhh...the problems and pitfalls we INTPs and INTJs have to endure! Where is Dr. Al when we need him??

Re: How Stupid Are They ????
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's this kind of idiocy that is a big reason why I frequently dislike playing B&M poker.

The people that are complete idiots are the one's you want in your game...but it's difficult for me to like them as people if I can't respect them due to their extremely stubborn incompetence.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm the exact opposite. I would play in B&M all the time if it were more profitable. The idiots I play with live are usually pretty likable. It's like playing with Woody or Coach from the TV show Cheers.

It's also entertaining to hear people's explanations of why they're losing ("Deuce-six offsuit is my favorite hand. I won a huge pot with it one time, so now I always play it") Online, you don't usually get that.

People are very stupid outside of poker, too. I just look at it like all those moron drivers who routinely piss me off while driving all pay me back by playing poker with me. It's like stupid tax.

Poker does take some time to understand. You can sit at a table for hours and see AA cracked five times while watching the guy playing random suited cards continuously rake in big pots with flushes. You really do need experience and intelligence to understand winning poker.

Re: How Stupid Are They ????
 

If you read Dr. Al's book, you will learn that a lot of people out there really don't play poker just to win money. A lot with playing poker is the entertainment aspect of it, something a lot of professionals and serious players tend to neglect over time as they learn more and more about the game.

Most people who play poker aren't dumb. Dumb people wouldn't be able to comprehend and grasp poker quick enough to play the game. They wouldn't even be able to grasp the mechanics.

You could say there are a lot of ignorant people when it comes to playing poker. But that is the nature of the game brings. The game is so visual, that it's much easier to accept seeing the fallacy rather than accepting the truth.

Lawrence

Re: How Stupid Are They ????
 

VoP = Voice on Phone. He is highly agitated.

VoP: My computer won't boot.
Me: Ok, is the power light on the front on?
VoP: Yes.
Me: Ok, is the power light on the monitor on?
--(I've done this before)--
VoP: Yes!
Me: Ok, do you see anything on the monitor?
VoP: Of course, you idiot! I see my desktop!
Me: Ok, so the computer is booted to the Operating System.
VoP: NONONO! I told you already, it won't BOOT!
--(yelling at this point)--
Me: Yes sir, I heard you. What Operating System do you use?
VoP: I use Microsoft Office!
Me: Yes sir, but what Operating System?
VoP: I just TOLD YOU!! MS WORD!
Me: Ok, click on the start menu for me.
VoP: What the F***?!?! This isn't a PC, it's a Mac!!
Me: Oh, sorry sir, I'm not familiar with those, I'm not smart enough.
VoP: ....
Me: Let me transfer you to our superior Macintosh Technicians.

<insta-hold>

<explain situation to coworker, both laugh until tears>

<transfer call to coworker after composure is regained>

<coworker gets a polite, calm customer because he's much smarter than I>

Yes, they really are that stupid. Some of the "tech" questions I got working a help desk made me wonder how those people managed to cross the street. People putting floppies in the CDROM, people *opening* a 3.5in floppy ("It was really difficult to get out of the case") and putting the raw media into the drive because they remember the old 5.25 disks with the slipcovers. Totally unreal.

Re: How Stupid Are They ????
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ahhh...the problems and pitfalls we INTPs and INTJs have to endure! Where is Dr. Al when we need him??

[/ QUOTE ]

Be glad you're not an eNFj. Then you'd care about their lack of knowledge and it'd pain you not to tap the aquarium...

Re: How Stupid Are They ????
 

Mike,

obviously the female dealers with jewelry, who has recieved their big tips, has been unlucky before, and are therefore now going to be lucky, according to the laws of statistic.

Ejnar Pik, Southern-Docks.

Re: How Stupid Are They ????
 

"I guess what confuses me is the admission of stupidity."

Ryden they are stupid. You expect a stupid person to realize that they are being stupid? That's not logical.

Re: How Stupid Are They ????
 

I dont think much of my post was logical. It was an expression of frustration. If a large sample of the people who I encounter in poker believe in rediculous and improbable events in card games, then what about really important stuff? It bugs me to know that people who believe that female dealers collude to cold deck tourists could be working as air traffic controllers or security advisors. It may, however, explain the FDA.

Re: How Stupid Are They ????
 

It takes an intelligent person to realize how much they don't know. A truly stupid person, thinks they have it covered and sees no need to learn.

Re: How Stupid Are They ????
 

I kind of like the 'stupid-tax' justification to extract maximum entertainment value out of these guys.
My problem comes from the 'superiority' aspect of that.
I guess I just don't like feeling like I am THAT much more intelligent than the stupid people at the table that I'm playing with....and I just can't avoid that feeling when they are seriously talking about dealers who are conspiring against them or the bad players who play cards that are SO bad that they you can't beat them, etc etc.
The one's who are trying to buddy up to me by saying "did you see that guy who beat me with 92o?" and especially the ones who are confrontational with me bug me the most naturally.


I like people in general. And I don't need them to be rocket-scientists for me to get along with them. My GF doesn't know a thing about poker....and, in baseball, she has a tough time remembering the difference between a strike-out and home-run. And we get along great.


I was talking with a couple of women in line at the cashier's cage with me (it was taking forever). I overheard them talking about some rude guy who deliberately was a jerk about showing his hand (the nuts) in a 4/8 game.
She seemed very composed about it though and pretty sharp.

"I mean...it's a 4/8 game. C'mon. Why does he need to be so rude?"
I turned around and chimed in "Poker players being rude?? I'm stunned. simply stunned."
They got the sarcasm.
I added that it's incidents like that which keep me from playing B&M more often.
The other woman told me that she disagreed and that it's incidents like that which actually keep her coming back.
She loves the pompousity and the entertainment-value, etc.
All these males trying to be tough-guys...especially around female players, etc.


The more I thought about it the more I decided I should try to adopt that perspective.
But I still think it is really almost relishing in one of the less enviable traits of human behaviour.