Ethics question... fire out that extra raise? (crosspost from SSLHE)
 

Setting: 3/6 Hold'em at Turning Stone. I sit down while waiting for my NL seat, and I instantly remember why 3/6 at Turning Stone is so profitable. No one else at the table seems to know anything about poker, except for maybe one other college kid to my right.

I go half an orbit without playing a hand, and in this time, an old lady sits down across from me. She clearly doesn't know what's going on, and as her husband hands her a portrait of Benjamin Franklin from out of his wallet, I can see the eyes of my table-mates lighting up.

Anyway, I'm involved in her second hand at the table, as I raise preflop with my AK and get two callers, one of which is this woman (who I'm not sure knew that she could fold).

Flop comes AJ8. She bets out, clearly confused. I raise (simply for the purpose of forcing out the third player in the pot), button folds, old woman calls.

Turn comes J. I'm no expert hand reader, but as the woman throws out her $6 bet I know she didn't make any sort of hand. I contemplate raising, but consider that I have to live with myself at night. I call.

River comes 8. OK, so she's probably playing the board at this point, and I have top 2. She bets out again. I again realize that getting another $6 out of her will not make me a better person. I call.

I table my aces and jacks, king kicker. She tables her 79o, for... the board. The dealer instructs her that "check" means that you pass the action to the next player without betting. She seems appreciative of the new advice.

My question: how many of you put in the raises? Note that we're assuming that you know she doesn't have a jack or an eight.. because, well, we do know. It's certainly a negative EV play to call behind on the river, say.... but do you care about the fact that this lady obviously doesn't know how to play poker?

Personally, I don't see any need to take her money... but then again, I'm not a pro who is counting every bet, and I'm not even a regular player at this 3/6 game. What do you pros think? If you're couting on BB/hr from this table, do you feel better about taking her money?

Opinions welcome.

-DB

Re: Ethics question... fire out that extra raise? (crosspost from SSLHE)
 

I would. Its her own fault is she doesn't know how to play.

Re: Ethics question... fire out that extra raise? (crosspost from SSLHE)
 

i would have raised. only for friends will i consider calling when i know i have them beat.

Re: Ethics question... fire out that extra raise? (crosspost from SSLHE)
 

DT, you're a good person. Seriously. But I would have raised.

Who knows with these things? Maybe one time in ten she is Doyle Brunson's mother and has the J, waiting to 3-bet you on the end.

Re: Ethics question... fire out that extra raise? (crosspost from SSLHE)
 

IMO you need to play right but always play fair. That means... play the game the way you think it should be played, even if the opponent isn't playing correctly. You teach and reinforce your skills by playing right all the time. If you let your emotions change your play, that's like going on tilt but in the opposite direction. That's not a good thing.

As long as it's a fair game, then let the chips and cards fall as they may. (Plus you never know whther a smarter player at the table may be watching you, and take advantage in the next hand!)

The more likely result of your play in this situation would have been for her to pull something out of her a** on the river and beat you! That happens, and then you'd have paid dearly for your decision, plus complain about the bad beat all the way home.

So ethics and integrity are important, but the integrity of your game skills is most important.

Just my 2BB worth.

- tomb

Re: Ethics question... fire out that extra raise? (crosspost from SSLH
 

Let's put another level on this. Instead of a sweet old lady, its a college kid who gets a $100 from his Dad. All else the same.

Either way, this is a game played for money. However, I think I check to the older woman and raise the snot out of the college kid.

Re: Ethics question... fire out that extra raise? (crosspost from SSLHE)
 

The correct move is to fold preflop if u dont want to take her money. If not raise! You cost yourself 12 bucks which is 48 pull-tabs bro!
Falker

Re: Ethics question... fire out that extra raise? (crosspost from SSLH
 

Silly post, of course you raise.

If they wheeled a blind deaf mute autistic holocaust survivor in and he had a post it on his forehead that said "I bet" and you knew it was his last $6, you should still raise.

When they start forcing people to play poker with you for money and kill them when they lose, then start worrying about the ethics of it.

Re: Ethics question... fire out that extra raise? (crosspost from SSLH
 

What a scenario from smasharoo...wow....I have to agree though, you bet and raise when called for. I do have a tinge of guilt when I see somebody rebuy several times and then beat them out of a big pot so they have to rebuy again, but I still would rather WIN!!

Re: Ethics question... fire out that extra raise? (crosspost from SSLH
 

Not being a pro....

Cooling your heels playing LL and leaving a few bets behind doesn't mean anything to your NL bankroll. I would probably do what you did in your situation too. I was never much for mugging old people in dark alleys.

Point to remember though, whether you take her money or you take the money from someone who takes it from her, either way she is going to lose it.

If I were playing only in this game, I would take it as fast as I could. Getting it from her is much easier than getting it from another player's stack and a few bets added to the stock pile mean much more at LL.

Re: Ethics question... fire out that extra raise? (crosspost from SSLHE)
 

I am more or less strictly a limit player.

But I play hard at everyone and I would raise her if I felt I had her beat. I will checkraise a guy on the river if I think I can, even if his girlfriend is sweating him. I checkraised the elderly Asian lady after checking my pocket Kings into a moderately threatening (straight or flush possible), Jack high board and it took her 45 full seconds to decide to bet her Queens (after which I could literally see through the backs of her cards -- working back through the earlier action). And if they engage me, I always let them know that it's nothing personal, that it's just the way I play. And when they make their miracles hands, I look a little puzzled (like they did something over my head) and say "Nice hand." (FWIW - I used to say "Very nice hand" to the real bonehead plays, but I have even given that private sarcasm up as I have surpassed the 200K hand mark.)

One problem with this approach is that it seems to train my opponents to try and be sure to put on their best game against me. I am thinking about how to handle that.

As an aside, I am the sort of person that gets more of a charge out of winning than out of competing. Even as a bridge player (years ago), I always wanted to play in the novice games where I could destroy the field handily. I do not go out looking for tough poker games, quite the opposite. I used to call my favorite games of bridge "body parts" and now I call my favorite games of poker "prison rape." The idea is the same, however. I do get some sadistic pleasure out of beating the weak and the crippled in card games. (Fortunately not in other aspects of life.)

Re: Ethics question... fire out that extra raise? (crosspost from SSLHE)
 

If I was as sure as you were that I had her beat I'd have raised her all the way too. That's how the game is played. After all, it's not like she would be giving you back some of your money if she managed to river you in the end. That being said, and so that I could live with myself afterwards, after scooping up her money I'd have mentioned to her in the nicest way possible that perhaps 3/6 hold'em is not where she should be risking her money. The rest of the table would want to kill me for doing so, but if she stuck around despite my warning, I'd be able to tell myself that I did my best to warn her and now she's getting what she deserves. My conscience would be clear at that point.

Re: Ethics question... fire out that extra raise? (crosspost from SSLHE)
 

wasn't it Brunson who said he'd bust his own grandma if she sat down with him?

but aside, what makes you think she would have called your raise with nothing?

Re: Ethics question... fire out that extra raise? (crosspost from SSLHE)
 

There is also a good chance that she saw you as a new tight player, put you on a draw and figured she had enough pot odds coupled with her fold equity to fire bets out representing the trip jacks. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

But realistically I like the reply mentioning if you don't take her money someone else at the table will. She was getting exactly what she was paying for, that is the excitement and thrill of gambling. Unless she quit playing soon there was probably no way she was getting up from that table with money left.

Re: Ethics question... fire out that extra raise? (crosspost from SSLH
 

[ QUOTE ]
i would have raised. only for friends will i consider calling when i know i have them beat.

[/ QUOTE ]
The original post didn't raise a real ethical issue, but this one does.

Re: Ethics question... fire out that extra raise? (crosspost from SSLH
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i would have raised. only for friends will i consider calling when i know i have them beat.

[/ QUOTE ]
The original post didn't raise a real ethical issue, but this one does.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is true. I get an awful taste in my mouth when two players who know eachother softfoot to the showdown.

P.S. I usually play tougher against my friends.

Re: Ethics question... fire out that extra raise? (crosspost from SSLHE)
 

You are asking an ethical question on a gambling forum full of sharks who by definition feed off fish with relentless envigoration [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]? Really? Are you just looking for a justification to take more of this woman's money? I'll throw in an ethical response [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

Speaking apart from poker strategy, obviously, as your question is framed from an ethical standpoint...

If you have a read such as you claim, I think it's a great thing not to raise, not to take advantage of someone like that who you know is just lost there on the table. I would hope that I would do the same.

A popular and I think wrong attitude by poker players is to find the worst players possible to play with. I don't want to play with a bunch of guys who will crush me, but I do want to get to the point where I can sit with a bunch of pros and win. Being kind to the weak certainly can't be looked down upon from an ethical standpoint, and I commend it.

M

Re: Ethics question... fire out that extra raise? (crosspost from SSLHE)
 

Going against the grain, I think it depends... if taking all her money this hand will make her get frustrated and leave, but if you take her money slowly she'll stay longer and buy in for more later on, then soft-playing this hand might be right, just to keep her at the table.

Re: Ethics question... fire out that extra raise? (crosspost from SSLH
 

[ QUOTE ]
Going against the grain, I think it depends... if taking all her money this hand will make her get frustrated and leave, but if you take her money slowly she'll stay longer and buy in for more later on, then soft-playing this hand might be right, just to keep her at the table.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well if he's waitting for another table he won't be playing 3/6 for a very long time(I think....never played in a casino) just keep raising as much as you can, if she doesn't know how to play the damn game that's her problem.

Re: Ethics question... fire out that extra raise? (crosspost from SSLH
 

I was HU against my brother in 2/4 at commerce and on the turn he went all in, I had AK, nothing, but knew i had the best hand, I folded it to him and told him only cus ur my brother (and my ride)... after the game he was like "i outplayed you"... and thats the last time I do that

Re: Ethics question... fire out that extra raise? (crosspost from SSLH
 

It's pretty much a given that anyone who sits at a poker table is going to be subject to whatever happens, in spite of whatever lack of skill they have. Since this is sort of a vote, mine is: I'd clean out my own mother if she sat down in a poker game with me [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I don't think there's anything wrong with that, and in fact, ANYTIME you soft play, it's THIS that may be construed as unethical.

Again, people play poker with the knowledge that they can lose money, by either bad luck, bad skill, or a combination of both. And by virtue of the nature of the game, you're entitled to use whatever skills you possess to win the most money you can.

KC
http://kingcobrapoker.com

Re: Ethics question... fire out that extra raise? (crosspost from SSLH
 

Live things gets complicated. Another day, the wife of a friend, sat on our table only to make number and complete our game. Soon, I eliminated the other two from the table and went heads-up agaisnt her. Problem is, she never played unless she had a good hand. So, any steal took her cards down, and whenever she betted I could be sure she had something. I stole half her stack without having to go to a showdown only by bettign heavy and varying the play a little. But I began to feel unconfrotable cause the other two on the table, knew I was just bluffing her out of pots. And she kept asking: how can u be so lucky and get so many good cards. Anyway... I then slowed down, to play only the pots she was willing to play along. I ended up winning but in a harder way, and I felt bad in the end. I would not feat thios online, but seeing her in front of me, with no idea that u can win pots without cards... well... shame me.

Re: Ethics question... fire out that extra raise? (crosspost from SSLHE)
 

The way you played the hand with the lady more or less answers your own question - you did the right thing - for you. Sounds like you know you did the right thing, again for you (not for everyone, there is no absolute right or wrong here).

I think the key to the way you played was that it was only her second hand. You let her off easy - gave her time to do what she came for - entertainment, maybe learn a bit of the game, etc. You could have won more from her that hand and she would have lost her money (assuming she finally did) sooner and a bit more of it to you.

For me, playing at a B & M is not just about the money. If it is ONLY about the money, why not stay home and play? (Disregarding any discussion of where one can make more money.) Don't get me wrong I don't play lightly, but I think I would of done the same. And I am sure by letting her last a bit longer you got some more entertainment for your money.

Re: Ethics question... fire out that extra raise? (crosspost from SSLHE)
 

BTW - I am not a pro by any means, since you asked for "pros" opinions.

Re: Ethics question... fire out that extra raise? (crosspost from SSLHE)
 

[ QUOTE ]

Turn comes J. I'm no expert hand reader, but as the woman throws out her $6 bet I know she didn't make any sort of hand. I contemplate raising, but consider that I have to live with myself at night. I call.


[/ QUOTE ]

if she has no clue what she's doing, you obviously can't get a read on her. she'd do the same thing regardless. and since you can't get a read on her, how can you be so sure she has nothing?

Re: Ethics question... fire out that extra raise? (crosspost from SSLH
 

[ QUOTE ]
I was HU against my brother in 2/4 at commerce and on the turn he went all in, I had AK, nothing, but knew i had the best hand, I folded it to him and told him only cus ur my brother (and my ride)... after the game he was like "i outplayed you"... and thats the last time I do that

[/ QUOTE ]

That's stupid, especially considering his "I outplayed you" line. I would have called him instantly and flipped over my cards while saying "nice try fish! I own you!"

It's 10x more fun to bust your brother/buddy than some stranger.

Re: Ethics question... fire out that extra raise? (crosspost from SSLHE)
 

It depends. Was she hot?

Re: Ethics question... fire out that extra raise? (crosspost from SSLH
 

I think the problem with not raising is that she is 100% guaranteed to lose all of her money and if you don't get it, someone else at the table will. She will probably be fine with losing it and if it all goes to you, then she might get a good story out of it - "I tried to play poker, but there was some young whipper-snapper card sharp at the table that took all my money just like that!"

Re: Ethics question... fire out that extra raise? (crosspost from SSLH
 

I would have raised

Re: Ethics question... fire out that extra raise? (crosspost from SSLH
 

Actually I think it's fair to say that most players try to -avoid- the knowledge that they can (will) lose because of "bad skill."

Re: Ethics question... fire out that extra raise? (crosspost from SSLHE)
 

I didn't read the other responses, so sorry if this is repetitive.

To me this stuff all comes down to why you're playing the game. If you're there with your buddies to have some beers and fun, then maybe you want to let Aunt Milly off easy.

But if you're there with making money and/or developing your skills as the main motivator(s), then I think you should play the game optimally, as consistently as possible.

Aunt Milly will either sink or swim, and may even benefit as she can learn how to play the game. If she doesn't like being raised, well that's part of the game, and she was going to be introduced to that sooner or later anyway.

Also, keep in mind this was 3/6 game and she was playing with $100. Her and her husband probably dropped more than that at the bar on the way down to the cardroom.

And for some of you newer guys, there have been plenty of posts like this in the past. One a while back was about a mentally handicapped dude and a similar question was raised.

A bunch of people said essentially that he sat down on his own free will and alls fair in love and war. You can check the archives if you're interested.

Luke