KK hand...part one
 

5-5 game. I have about $700 and raise utg for $25. My image is definitely tight. A loose-aggro raises to $75. He has about $1500. 3 loose players call the $75 cold. each has about $800. Their calls could mean anything.
The action's back to you. What's your play?

Re: KK hand...part one
 

Make it $300 and try to end it here. If someone comes over the top - read dependendent - but you probably have to muck - Unless these guys are bad enough to make that move w AK or QQ.

Re: KK hand...part one
 

I don't understand why you would say this. There is already $335 in the pot. Making it $300 is half the hero's stack, which is essentially pot committing him because if he's reraised he'll be getting at least 3-to-1 on a call. The only hand that has him at worse odds is AA, and considering the villain is described as loose aggressive, you cannot possibly put him on that as his only possible holding, so you are getting correct odds to push no matter what. And obviously hero is ahead of any other hand preflop.

Re: KK hand...part one
 

I like this sort of question. It's fairly elementary, I mean, it's obvious you have to raise, but it can offer great "pseudo experience" for people learning.

I would make it $400 in total, and pray for QQ or JJ to try to bust me.

Re: KK hand...part one
 

Can you be more specific and say which part of the Slut's analysis you disagree with?

Re: KK hand...part one
 

I don't subscribe to the I'll go broke preflop if I have KK and someone else happens to have AA line. In this case I wasn't worried about villain, but more one of the callers - I flat call in position w/ AA often.

To me, pushing here just seems counter productive - You're only getting called by AA. If you put in a solid raise without pushing, you may still get a call from AK or QQ and have a chance to get the rest of their money on the flop.

But what do I know...

Re: KK hand...part one
 

I thought the general consensus was not to three-bet KK because you make it too easy to play correctly. Everyone will call with AA and fold anything else.

Re: KK hand...part one
 

With this many people in the pot, I think you have to do something to at least thin the field - I don't really want to play KK out of position with 4 way action in a raised & re-rasied pot - How do you even know which cards should scare you on the flop? If any A,Q,J or T comes how good are you going to feel? I want to get heads-up, hopefully w QQ or AK.

Re: KK hand...part one
 

I didn't say push. I said that if he raises to $300 preflop (as you said) he cannot fold if he is reraised as you recommend.

KK hand...part Two
 

I raised $300 to $325 all day. All fold to late postion who poneders and calls. I really wanted to take it down there and felt this was a sufficent size raise to do it.

I want to add that any player in this hand would come over the top with Aces. The original raiser likes to re-raise all types of hands and the callers were most likely calling because of the odds. The player that called me is a loose gambler and not at all a sophisticated player. His range of hands here would be any big suited Ace or any pair 8's and up.
Stack sizes are about equal. I have $475 left and he has about $450.

Given the description of the situation, the flop comes:

2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]-7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]-10 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

I push. Anyone play it differently?

Re: KK hand...part one
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't subscribe to the I'll go broke preflop if I have KK and someone else happens to have AA line. In this case I wasn't worried about villain, but more one of the callers - I flat call in position w/ AA often.

To me, pushing here just seems counter productive - You're only getting called by AA. If you put in a solid raise without pushing, you may still get a call from AK or QQ and have a chance to get the rest of their money on the flop.

But what do I know...

[/ QUOTE ]

I completely agree with LA here, and this was my thought process.

Re: KK hand...part Two
 

[ QUOTE ]
I raised $300 to $325 all day. All fold to late postion who poneders and calls. I really wanted to take it down there and felt this was a sufficent size raise to do it.

I want to add that any player in this hand would come over the top with Aces. The original raiser likes to re-raise all types of hands and the callers were most likely calling because of the odds. The player that called me is a loose gambler and not at all a sophisticated player. His range of hands here would be any big suited Ace or any pair 8's and up.
Stack sizes are about equal. I have $475 left and he has about $450.

Given the description of the situation, the flop comes:

2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]-7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]-10 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

I push. Anyone play it differently?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not no, but Hell no. Hope it worked out for you.

Re: KK hand...part one
 

[ QUOTE ]
I like this sort of question. It's fairly elementary, I mean, it's obvious you have to raise, but it can offer great "pseudo experience" for people learning.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was a staunch limit player that decided to jump into NL a couple of times per week because all the new (read: bad) players seem to be jumping into these medium stakes NL games. I keep having to remind myself that I'm learning a new game with players that are bad enough to make it extremely profitable. Sometimes these conditions make it easy to overlook the routine thought process's that lend themselves to a strong foundation. I'll get off the soap box now. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: KK hand...part one
 

Um...You said: "so you are getting correct odds to push no matter what"

Re: KK hand...part one
 

Yes. If you are reraised, you are getting correct odds to push the rest of your chips in.

Re: KK hand...part Two
 

[ QUOTE ]
I want to add that any player in this hand would come over the top with Aces. The original raiser likes to re-raise all types of hands and the callers were most likely calling because of the odds. The player that called me is a loose gambler and not at all a sophisticated player. His range of hands here would be any big suited Ace or any pair 8's and up.
Stack sizes are about equal. I have $475 left and he has about $450.

Given the description of the situation, the flop comes:

2 -7 -10

I push. Anyone play it differently?

[/ QUOTE ]

most of the time i play it exactly like you........however every once in awhile when i'm playing against the type of opponent you describe (loose gambler) i might check it to him as this will often induce him to push thinking i might have AK and will fold.

i know i know you give him the oppertunity to outdraw you, but i think more often then not these types of players will push it if you check to them, however they will fold most of there hands if you push.

lets think of the possible hands your opponent could have, obviously he could have any pocket pair, so if you check there is a good chance he will push.

he could also have a big ace, and if he does check behind that could be bad, however he is only drawing to three outs (unless of course he has the Ax of clubs, in which case he will most likely push it anyway being the loose gambler).

all that being said i think the pot is plenty big and there is no point in being greedy, so there is no way that pushing here is a bad play........just thought i'd mention the possiblity of checking it to him one time, and again i'd only do this vs. the exact type of player you describe.

Re: KK hand...part one
 

I agree with LA Poker here.

You can't play a big pot with 4 people out of position, and you can't move in preflop unless you are certain that people will call you with worse hands. So the raise to 300-400, move in on an aceless flop, is the proper choice.

Re: KK hand...results
 

He called my all in and showed pocket Q's. Unfortunately for me the turn brought a Q. At least my read was right.

The good news is I know my frame of mind is right for this game, because it didn't really bother me. Well not that much anyway [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]!

Thanks for all the responses.

Re: KK hand...part Two
 

Hi Riverboat,

This opponent was not the type to bet. He just called and hoped to hit. If I gave him a free pass at an Ace or a backdoor flush or some two out set, and lose because I got cute in a big pot, well, I'd probably have to light myself on fire! [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Using a Little Math
 

I dont see why a push on the flop isnt the correct play here. The math/game theory analysis is quite complex and it is why beyond my abilities. However, lets look at a simple case.

Lets say there is one player with QQ. He will call the 300 but fold the allin bet.

So, with the 300 bet, the EV is 900*7/8 - 300 for around 485. Minus, 1/8*700 for 85. Total EV is thus 400. Since the allin fold is obviously plus $300 EV then the raise 300 raise is +100 over the allin bet.

However, if the player will call allin with QQ then the equation tilts in favor of pushing. Also, my analysis ignores what happens when an A falls and what happens if he has A,K instead of Q,Q.

Because you are dealing with many players on a range of hands, with a range of ways they will react to bets, with a range of interactions between how players will react to previous action, with a range of how actions based on a range of flops there is almost no way to do the math.

However, if I had to guess I would lean towards saying that the math would say pushing on the flop is the correct action against loose players.

Re: KK hand...part one
 

i know this is what most people would consider fit for mid-stakes, but i'm gonna say i think this hand belongs in the small stakes forum. questions like "i raise with KK, a loose guy reraises and a few idiots call, what should i do" and "now half my stack is in the pot and the flop comes all rags, what should i do" are small stakes questions. in fact i don't think you are ready for these stakes if you are truly stumped by these puzzlers.

Re: KK hand...part one
 

Hi NooYawk,

I don't know why people are suggesting that you should be worried about AA. You have a LAG raising your bet, and some people cold-calling. Why would one of them not re-raise with AA? Only if they somehow knew you had a huge hand, and were sure to re-raise. With $5000 stacks, this would be a WCP. With 700 in your stack, and 900 in the LAG's, it just isn't worth the risk of letting a bunch of people see the flop for 75 when there's about 200-300 (depending on which caller we're talking about).

So you should be thinking about how to get someone committed pre-flop, and getting them all-in no later than on the flop. I think the best way to do it is to make it about 375-425 (giving them less than 2 to 1 by a little bit). Of course, once you do that, you're committed if someone re-raises.

I think this:
[ QUOTE ]
Make it $300 and try to end it here. If someone comes over the top - read dependendent - but you probably have to muck

[/ QUOTE ]

is very bad advice. It surprises me, also, because lapoker always seems to be advising "easy call" in spots that I think are folds or tough decisions. This is a very easy re-raise/commit all your chips situation, IMO. The size of your stack is one of the biggest factors that makes it easy; the actions of the callers and the description of the raiser are the other important factors.

Re: KK hand...part one
 

Hey Cero - Other than your disagreement about folding if someone comes over the top, I don't see how our advice is really that different - Your reraise is slightly larger, but whatever. The point is I want QQ to stay in and I think you do too. If I'm playing with bad players and someone comes over the top here preflop, then fine, maybe I call, but LAG doesn't always mean idiot. If I face 2 reraises preflop in the game I normally play, then I'm getting away from Kings - Your point about stack sizes in this game is, however, well taken.

As far as my saying things like "easy call" a lot when you think it's a tough decision - Please show me where. Really, I need to see some examples of this - I'm not saying you're wrong, I just don't feel like I give that kind of advice too often.

I get bashed on here all the time for being too worried about being behind when I should be pushing etc...so it would surprise me if you're correct.

Re: KK hand...part one
 

Hi lapoker,

Right you are, regarding my comment on your past posts. I confused you with SossMan, who has an "LA" (Dodgers) logo as his avatar. My bad.