you can never be too careful
 

Full $20-40 at FW. Two players limped and I raised from the hijack seat with KQ. The cutoff called, the button called, both blinds folded, and the limpers called. Fiveway pot with me third.

The flop was K-6-6 rainbow. The limpers checked, I checked, the cutoff checked, the button bet, both limpers folded, I called, and the cutoff called. Three players now with me first.

The turn was a king. I checked, the cutoff checked, the button bet, I called, and the cutoff folded. Headsup now. I planned to bet the river unless a six came.

The river was a six. Final board: K-6-6,K,6. I checked, the button bet, and I called. He rolled 7-7.

Re: you can never be too careful
 

I like it.

Re: you can never be too careful
 

You left the moaning and groaning after you tabled KQ. Don't leave out very important parts like that. :P

Re: you can never be too careful
 

"I planned to bet the river unless a six came.'

why? i think youll make more by checkraising the river.

Re: you can never be too careful
 

How is this anything close to an appropriate line?

Re: you can never be too careful
 

[ QUOTE ]
How is this anything close to an appropriate line?

[/ QUOTE ]

It appropriately adds a little "huh?" to the other players game when playing Tommy in future hands. Just for that occasional confusion.

Re: you can never be too careful
 

He's either way ahead or way behind, couldn't possibly get a better hand to fold, and there are no draws on the board. And he gets to smooth roll the "monster", which really isn't a monster if you think about it, but the opponents probably don't. Nothing wrong with kicking the button in the groin early in the session.

Re: you can never be too careful
 

Of course you can be too careful. What a silly expression that is.

I'm trying to decide, in between smiles, if I like your K-6-6,K,6 way of keeping the flop cards clear from the other streets (as opposed to K-6-6-K-6), or if I'd prefer K,6,6-K-6.

As for the hand, your play could be terrific or horrific, depending on how the button plays.

Re: you can never be too careful
 

[ QUOTE ]
He's either way ahead or way behind

[/ QUOTE ]

He's either tied or way ahead. If you can put the button on 6x here, you are seeing way too many big ugly monsters under the bed. I'm not sure which is better between betting out or going for a check-raise on the river, but check-call is the second best option just slightly above check fold.

Re: you can never be too careful
 

[ QUOTE ]
How is this anything close to an appropriate line?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not a high limit guy, but I read posts in this part of the forum often, especially Tommy's posts. This Tommy post is just another in a long line where I'm starting to notice some trends:

- I read the post and immediately think about how poor/strange the line looks.
- Yet when I think about what my line would be, or my response, if I was to reply, I always have a hard time coming up with something that would make more money against a semi-thinking opponent.
- He doesn't always include reads, but you know he has them, and is leaving them out for a reason. In this case, if his read is that the button will fold to a turn check-raise, then his line was optimal, right? These hands aren't the same as if it was against Party 15/30 players from what I gather.
- He buys a boatload of free showdowns.
- Players have to be worried when he check/calls uncoordinated boards. And what are they going to think when he raises?

Mostly, these hands make me think, and I like that. They aren't always the line that I would take at first glance, but hey, he's playing for a living and I'm not, so I recognize there's a reason he's posting something like this, and I can probably learn something if I keep my mind open. (not a slam against SoBeDude personally, but more of a general response regarding Tommy posts.)

Re: you can never be too careful
 

[ QUOTE ]
As for the hand, your play could be terrific or horrific, depending on how the button plays.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's neither. It's angelic, er I mean angeloic.

Re: you can never be too careful
 

why no checkraise on the river? Do you really put him on a 6? I can see the logic in everything else, but this I can't figure out.

Re: you can never be too careful
 

There seems to be a trend where people are reluctant to rip tommy's play. This hand, along with some others he has posted, make no sense. Please convince me otherwise.

Re: you can never be too careful
 

I think that as a whole, this board may be too concerned with aggression....I think some of tommy's posts point that out...

For this hand, he was able to get a player on the button to bet 77 on every street when the board read K-6-6,K,6....If I had played this hand, I would have bet the flop, and bet the turn, and the button most likely would have folded.....It would never occur to me to check either the flop or the turn...I would be too concerned with losing bets....but maybe I lose those bets no matter what if I bet....

I like this line...it's not the standard line I would take, but it looks like it works....If you don't like this line, please provide an alternative that garners the same amount of bets.....

Re: you can never be too careful
 

Tommy,

Barry and sublime will attest; you haven't played at Foxwoods enough.

Peace,
Joe Tall

Re: you can never be too careful
 

the problem with this line, is that you never give your opponent a chance to overplay his hand. 77 might have gone 3 bets with you on one of those streets if you let him. Lots of other hands do the same. I don't know your read on the button, nor the game texture, but people must be given a chance to overplay their hands or make bad coldcalls because it's something they like to do. I c/r raise the flop and bet the turn. If everyone folds so be it. A lot of the time the CO calls two cold on the flop and someone raises the turn to try to push you off 99 or something. depending on who was doing the raising this might be the place for a smoothcall/bet out.

given that we've arrived at the river, i say you must checkraise the river.

Re: you can never be too careful
 

B&M is very different than PP15. A player at a live 20/40 game is very unlikely to overplay 77 on a board like this against a passive player such as Tommy.

As for the hand, you got the most you could, most likely. Accept, I would have certainly raised the river. he may have easily made a crying call looking for a chop.

Re: you can never be too careful
 

I like the play a lot. The flop check was great, it kept the cutoff in and induced the Button to bet 2nd pair when he was in reaaly bad shape.

I assume you didnt want to shut thee CO off on the turn w/ a raise nor wake the button up if you put him on a pair between 7s and Js.

Ijust don't think you can pass up a river check raise because not many 20 players are going to have a six in their hand unless they have 5 sixes here [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img].

You would have got called too.

In summary, I think the passivity was brilliant on all streets except the river.

Re: you can never be too careful
 

What I want to know is what Tommy would do if a blank came on the turn...check/call again? Was his plan to check/call-check/call-bet assuming turn/river are blanks?

care to enlighten me Tommy?

-DrG

Re: you can never be too careful
 

"What I want to know is what Tommy would do if a blank came on the turn...check/call again?"

If the turn and river had both been blanks, I would have checkcalled both streets. I did not have any particular read on the button player, in general, or on this hand, except that he was betting and the board was K-6-6, so I played him for a king or a six.

Tommy

Re: you can never be too careful
 

At the Foxwoods 20-40, you are being too careful. They'll call you with much worse.

Edit - I'm thinking of the river check here, especially.

Re: you can never be too careful
 

[ QUOTE ]
At the Foxwoods 20-40, you are being too careful. They'll call you with much worse.


[/ QUOTE ]


This is very true of the traditional Foxwoods crowd ... something I wish I was a part of for the last few days, but I've been unfortunately riddled with the flu.


Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com

Re: you can never be too careful
 

Why not bet the river?

When it looks like you'll both be playing the board, just about any hand will call. The case 6 is more unlikely than the case king since the button cold called a PF raise. If you're raised, then call expecting to chop.

I think there's just too much risk of a check-behind not to bet out with a 95% chance of the best or tied for best hand.

If this post was about meta-game stuff, then tell us if you got some free showdowns later in the session.

Re: you can never be too careful
 

When you look at a line of play, there are many things to consider. But the most important and overriding consideration is how to make the most money at the table.

Sometimes that's measured in terms of losing the least when we're behind in a hand, sometimes its that thin value bet on the river. And learning how to make the most money is the reason we all post on this forum.

And yes, sometimes playing a specific hand in a suboptimal way has metagame implications that actually help us make more money in the rest of the session.

But not finding a raise with top full is simply a mistake at the most fundamental level. It can't be explained or justified away.

You can make an argument for playing every street up to the river the way Tommy did, but you can't justify his river play. If Tommy really confident his opponent would bet the river, then check-raising the river is fine. If not he should have bet out. And once he checks and his opponent bets, he absolutely HAS to check-raise there.

-Scott

Re: you can never be too careful
 

[ QUOTE ]
"What I want to know is what Tommy would do if a blank came on the turn...check/call again?"

If the turn and river had both been blanks, I would have checkcalled both streets. I did not have any particular read on the button player, in general, or on this hand, except that he was betting and the board was K-6-6, so I played him for a king or a six.

Tommy

[/ QUOTE ]

This makes sense up until the river. And very possibly I'd have played those streets the same. But please, why did you play the river the way you did?

-Scott

Re: you can never be too careful
 

If this post was about meta-game stuff, then tell us if you got some free showdowns later in the session.

This is just silly.

Yes you can possibly say that the initial CHECK on the river may have earned him some free showdowns, but after he checks and his opponent bets the check-raise on the river is mandatory. And if you think about it, check-raising the river will earn him MORE free rivers than check-calling.

Whats scarier, your opponent check-calling you on the river, or him check-raising you on the river? If you're looking for free showdowns, check-raise. Then when you check next time, your opponent(s) will remember the river check-raise and be more afraid to value bet the river against you unless you're really beat.

-Scott

Re: you can never be too careful
 

Yeah I'd say he missed a few bets here...

Re: you can never be too careful
 

[ QUOTE ]
And once he checks and his opponent bets, he absolutely HAS to check-raise there.


[/ QUOTE ]

Who calls that he doesn't split with? Nobody has AA in this pot...

I thought it was SOP to let a bluffer keep bluffing, and raising a person that you think is bluffing is just poor strategy. It appears that Tommy believes this person is either bluffing or has quads or has the other K. If the guy is bluffing betting out is certainly wrong, as he'll just fold and a bluffer won't call a c/r, the most you get is one bet. If the guy has quads betting out gets you raised (as it would by the other K) and you stand to loose 2 bets. If you c/r the guy with quads you get 3 bet, and have to call and loose 3 bets. If the guy has the other K you get raised when you bet and gain nothing, and the other K is not going to fold to a c/r. Not only does this line not need to be "explained or justified away", it is the only way to maximize the river. The only possible argument for a river c/r is if you are SURE the other guy is betting a bluff, and you just don't want to show.

lf

Re: you can never be too careful
 

Barry and sublime will attest; you haven't played at Foxwoods enough.

foxwoods rules!

the softest 10 and 20 games i have ever seen. not that i have seen many, but from what little exposure i have had to vegas and ac.

Re: you can never be too careful
 

[ QUOTE ]


Who calls that he doesn't split with? Nobody has AA in this pot...

[/ QUOTE ]

A lot of people call the check raise, hoping to split. I'm guessing a check raise gets called by a hand he beats more often than he gets reraised by a 6.

Things I rather do than play like Tommy . . .
 

1) Sleep in a bunk bed under Oprah.
2) Watch "the Biggest Loser".
3) Shop for bras with my grandmother.
4) Have dinner with Clarkmeister.
5) Listen to Guy McSucker whine about another losing session.

Merry Christmas to All!

TSP

Re: Things I rather do than play like Tommy . . .
 

i dont know much about TA except that the majority of players on this forum highly respect him as a winning player, and i respect their opinions greatly. now that ive mentioned this, not raising this river, and not betting out with no reads is simply a losing play, no two ways about it. TA may be a very good player, but people are far too quick to just accept his poor plays for good merely because of his reputation. the river play here is bad. period.

Re: you can never be too careful
 

"I thought it was SOP to let a bluffer keep bluffing, and raising a person that you think is bluffing is just poor strategy."

Me too.

"It appears that Tommy believes this person is either bluffing or has quads or has the other K."

I did.

"If the guy is bluffing betting out is certainly wrong, as he'll just fold and a bluffer won't call a c/r, the most you get is one bet."

That would seem so yes.

"If the guy has quads betting out gets you raised (as it would by the other K) and you stand to loose 2 bets. If you c/r the guy with quads you get 3 bet, and have to call and loose 3 bets. If the guy has the other K you get raised when you bet and gain nothing, and the other K is not going to fold to a c/r."

And all of that too.

"Not only does this line not need to be "explained or justified away", it is the only way to maximize the river."

That's what I was thinking too. As it turns out looking back, the river was the only betting round that held no options. On a different day or at a different moment in that game, I might have folded preflop, or I might have bet the flop, or bet the turn or checkraised it. On no day would I bet or checkraise the river if I thought the guy was on a king or a six or a bluff.

Tommy

Re: you can never be too careful
 

right. if you knew your opponent had either a K a 6 or a bluff then you are right it is best to just call it down. the problem is your opponentn didn't have any of these, he value bet his two pair, tried to buy it on the turn, and then value bet his full house. There are lots of hands your opponent can play like this that are not a K a 6 or a bluff

Re: you can never be too careful
 

[ QUOTE ]
That's what I was thinking too. As it turns out looking back, the river was the only betting round that held no options. On a different day or at a different moment in that game, I might have folded preflop, or I might have bet the flop, or bet the turn or checkraised it. On no day would I bet or checkraise the river if I thought the guy was on a king or a six or a bluff.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you checkraise the river, there are 4 possibilities (assuming you don't fold).

1) You get reraised by the 6 - lose 2 extra bets
2) You get reraised/called by the K - even
3) You get called by a worse hand, hoping to split - win 1 extra bet
4) Opponent folds - even

So, the decision should be based on whether its twice as likely that an opponent will call hoping to split, as they are to be holding the case 6. Nothing the opponent has done indicates they have the 6. They just kept betting when checked to. This can mean a very large range of hands. In fact, the best clue is the cold call of the raise preflop. How often does a cold call mean the caller has a 6 (well, maybe two of them [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] )?

I don't know the game you were playing in, the player in question, how passive he is, or how he viewed your play. All I know is that the game I play (Party 15), I checkraise, and expect to come out ahead in the long run.

Re: Things I rather do than play like Tommy . . .
 

[ QUOTE ]
the river play here is bad. period.

[/ QUOTE ]


You don't think if Tommy bets out at the river he loses the opportunity to extract another bet out of the button? The button is playing the board on the river -- so there is a chance he doesn't call. Tommy's line got him an extra BB, which he can turn in for one of those insanely-good steaks from the steakhouse.

If I could manage to get out of bed with this damn flu, I'd be down there laughing at some of our locals trying to buy pots off him when he's sportin' the second-nuts check-calling his way through their racks.

Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com

Dear Tommy
 

Dear Tommy Angelo

In regards to your recent post on www.twoplustwo.com, we here would like to offer you the following advice.

Raise, you weak tight ninny.

Sincerely,
Lurkers Anoynmous.


P.S., I'm just kidding. I really, really like the way you play a lot of hands. It has opened my eyes to some meta game considations, my favourite being the AA hand where the flop came down with two queens and two spades. The phrase "I had been folding my BB at every opportunity. My expected win rate at this was 5 BB/100)" was ideal.

Re: you can never be too careful
 

[ QUOTE ]
A lot of people call the check raise, hoping to split. I'm guessing a check raise gets called by a hand he beats more often than he gets reraised by a 6

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe this is a location thing, but the games that I play in, nobody calls a river c/r without at least AA. They might call a bet, but its unlikely.

Re: you can never be too careful
 

if youre in a game where you think its more likely that the player will have a 6 then will call a cr playing the board, then you played it fine and i retract my statement. but, from the games i play in, it is far, far more likely to get called by a guy playing the board then for someone to have a 6 here. you also have no reads on the button here. keep in mind, if the button thinks playing the board is good enough to bet, hes almost certainly going to think its good enough to make a crying call to a cr.

Re: you can never be too careful
 

[ QUOTE ]
right. if you knew your opponent had either a K a 6 or a bluff then you are right it is best to just call it down. the problem is your opponentn didn't have any of these, he value bet his two pair, tried to buy it on the turn, and then value bet his full house. There are lots of hands your opponent can play like this that are not a K a 6 or a bluff

[/ QUOTE ]

His opponents only possible hands here are a K, a 6, a bluff, or AA. There is no other possible holding. Any other hand plays the board.

Justin A