Gamble?
 

Live 5/5 NL at Foxwoods. I have ~2500 and two clueless maniacs have me covered many times over. They each raise liberally preflop, each about 2-3 times per orbit. Both overplay hands regularly. I think both are high stakes blackjack players.

Limped pot. I'm in the SB with K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Flop comes down K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. I check. Maniac#1 leads out for 500. He does pretty often. Maniac#2 thinks for a couple seconds and calls 500. Mucked to me.

I think for ten seconds and move in.

Thoughts?

Anybody do anything differently if they had no more money in their pocket to buy back into this game?

Re: Gamble?
 

Hopefully they will both fold and you win the thousand bucks that is in there. Obviously moving in is the right move. However, because they are high stakes blackjack players, one of them probably hit his inside straight with AQ and the other one rivered his flush with 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

Re: Gamble?
 

what position are the maniacs in, and how many players limped preflop?

Re: Gamble?
 

#1 is UTG+1, #2 is CO-2

6 players or so saw the flop

Re: Gamble?
 

yeah i wouldnt love it, but i think you have to play this. either that or fold. but that is too much of a hand to not duke it out with these bozos.

Re: Gamble?
 

Does anyone see any merit in smooth calling in the hope that one of these wise guys will fire another bullet on the turn without the goods. Most of the maniacs that I play with are more likely to run an ill-advised bluff than make a terrible call. You obviously have to worry about the heart draw, of course, but it might be worth giving a free card if you have an excellent chance to double through. Because you are out of position, the risk of giving two free cards may outweigh the benefits. Just a thought . . .

Re: Gamble?
 

[ QUOTE ]
one of them probably hit his inside straight with AQ and the other one rivered his flush with 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

[/ QUOTE ]

Hitting inside straight with AQ would fill hero up, no?
All the better.

4gaps

Re: Gamble?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
one of them probably hit his inside straight with AQ and the other one rivered his flush with 7 8 .



Hitting inside straight with AQ would fill hero up, no?
All the better.


[/ QUOTE ]

oh touche rupurt! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Gamble?
 

[ QUOTE ]
what position are the maniacs in

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FWIW, my guess is that these are the kind of guys who don't pay much attention to position...

ML4L

Re: Gamble?
 

[ QUOTE ]
FWIW, my guess is that these are the kind of guys who don't pay much attention to position...

[/ QUOTE ]

still if there are four players left to act after the maniacs it does make it less likely that neither of them have anything.

of course when he says maniac i'm not sure how crazy he is talking about. they could simply be oblivious.

also, you say the pot was six handed. so that means the pot was ~30? or is it 5-5 10 to go? even so the pot is only ~60 at most and there is a bet of almost 10X the pot and then a smooth call?

that seems pretty crazy to me, so i guess it doesn't matter what position they were in. good point ML.

i just think these guys have to be really insane for your hand to be good.......i mean one guy bets almost 10X the pot and gets smoothcalled......if your hand was good i'm gonna have to book a plane ticket.

Re: Gamble?
 

Maniacs can't limp w/ KJ or JJ?

I'm folding this.

Re: Gamble?
 

I'm gonna run over you if I ever play against you.

Re: Gamble?
 

If they are really clueless maniacs, I'd say a push is good. But they have to be really, really, stupid.

Re: Gamble?
 

Is this directed at me?

I play the 10/20 at Commerce 5 days a week, come on over.

Until you fill up, trips in an unraised pot aren't that great a hand, you should know that. The situation/players here don't change that.

Re: Gamble?
 

I agree that trips isn't a great hand until you fill up. But that isn't the point. All that matters is whether Ocho has a better hand than his opponents. Trips might not be great, but trips ten kicker is much better than any realistic holding for the other two players in the pot. Kx with a worse kicker is possible, and KJ KQ AK or JJ are all very unlikely given the loose preflop tendency of the players. Ideally in such a game Ocho would be able to wait around until he gets a house against these guys, but the answer to playing against reckless players can't possibly be to wait for the nuts. Move in, get called, win the hand, and if you lose then it's just terrible luck. There's 1K in this pot and he's going against essentially random hands-what more could Ocho be waiting for?

Re: Gamble?
 

Ocho,
What did these guys look like? I've played that 5-5 game and there're about 4 or 5 different guys that show up every other month or so and get involved in $6k pots or so with like Kx vs A3 on a K 5 3 board and other insanity. If it's any one of them then a push is mandatory.

Re: Gamble?
 

i'd have done nearly the same. after your call it's a $1520 pot and you'll have $2,000 behind. just take the money. all in is fine. if they are also calling stations i might raise $500 or $1,000 instead. $500 if i can read my way out of trouble; $1,000 if i can't. if they're superbluffers and you can read them you can call for the turn equity. but you better be paying attention. most players who bet $500 into $20 pots without the nuts are easy to read though.

keep in mind your opponents (especially the second one) must be willing to routinely put in $500 with gutshots or worse for screwing around to be potentially correct. otherwise you should raise big.

matt

Re: Gamble?
 

I'd have to say no gamble here. if these guys raise liberally preflop, then the fact that neither didn't means one of them probably has a real hand aa, qq, jj or ak and the other is on a super draw aq of hearts or 10,Q of hearts. ya know, raise with nothing and be sneaky with good cards. i'm thinking if this is all i have to play with i wait for a better spot, or just call and see if that slows the action on the turn if it is a blank . i'm thinking that you were either beat by a made hand or outdrawn. The fact that the second player thought for a few seconds before smooth calling is a bad sign. This is if these guys are as bad/maniac as you say they are.
interested to hear the results,
gummy d
p.s. i don't play in games this deep so what do i know.

Re: Gamble?
 

In a game where there are 2 maniacs and is somewhat loose aggressive, you pretty much are peddling the nuts which is close to what you have given your description of the players. A push on the flop is correct.

Larwence

Results
 

Don't want to cut off discussion but may not be able to get back online for a couple of days so here are my results and brief/incomplete thoughts:

As for being beat, there are really only two hands I'm afraid of from these guys KQ and KJ. AK, JJ are definite raising hands. Deception was not in either's game. KQ probably would have been a raise for these guys, but KJ is fairly likely to be limpable. That being said, any K on this board would seem like the nuts to these guys, and they would have limped with any king. Thus, I'm way more likely to be up a weaker king than KQ/KJ. Against any other players, even one of the many mediocre ones in this game, I am folding KT, but it was just too much hand here to fold.

OK, so I'm not folding... what then? #1 was a betting maniac, and #2 was a maniac-calling-station (if there is such a thing). I don't feel like getting cute, and figure I'm getting called anyways by both if one has draw and other has K, so I move in.

Results:
#1 folds quickly (must've had a jack). #2 calls with K8. Turn T, River T. Chop it up.