150-300 J6s sb
 

3 handed good live game. i have Jc6c in the sb. an okay player openraises on the button. i complete for 4 chips when i see that bb is ready to complete as well.

the flop is KJ8 rainbow. i bet, both call.

the turn is K putting two diamonds up there. checked to button who bets, we both call.

the river is 2h. checked to button who bets, i call.

comments?

Re: 150-300 J6s sb
 

I dont mind any of the plays. None that jump out at me as being incorrect. I would be afraid of the BB having me beat with JT or QJ though, so I would most likely check-raise the turn and blow him out. There are too many hands the button could have for you to not have him beat here. Probably also value-bet the river as well, but you could make a case for checking if you think he will bet a busted ace high diamond draw.

Re: 150-300 J6s sb
 

shorthanded alot depends ont he nature of the game. I think a case can be made for check raising the turn so that BB can't draw to anything.

Re: 150-300 J6s sb
 

Even 3-handed this is an easy much preflop, Mike. Why get involved out of position?

Peace,
Joe Tall

Re: 150-300 J6s sb
 

"i complete for 4 chips when i see that bb is ready to complete as well."

So, what did you like better, the disapperance of dead money, or the fact another player would put you further out of position with a bad hand?

Re: 150-300 J6s sb
 

I'm not a short-handed player, but isn't position of less importance than in a long-handed game? Button's pre-flop raise is apt to mean far less and the presence of the 3rd man post-flop is also apt to make the button less aggressive than he would be head-up, no?

Re: 150-300 J6s sb
 

Seems like an easy fold to me. Of course the standard caveats apply: reads, tells, leveled thinking, advertising, future info, etc., etc.

Re: 150-300 J6s sb
 

I'm not a huge fan of the call in the SB but you are definitely getting your price if you are sure the BB is calling. I would fold or muck depending how I was running and how strong the button plays his position.

I like the lead bet on the flop and wouldn't have been thrilled by the button flat calling after the BB called.

If the BB wasn't in the hand I think the turn should be checkraised, but with the guy in the middle discretion may be the better part of valor.

I would have check called the river and expected a very big hand form the button.

Games this short seem very "how's he doing in the game" dependent. Because of this I change up a lot depending on how I am being percieved.

FJM

Re: 150-300 J6s sb
 

Position is much more important short handed than it is in full ring.

Re: 150-300 J6s sb
 

Just a quick observation that this hand is a good example of why I think kickers are way more important with 2nd pair than with top pair.

Re: 150-300 J6s sb
 

"I'm not a huge fan of the call in the SB but you are definitely getting your price if you are sure the BB is calling. "

can you explain what you mean by "getting your price?"

Re: 150-300 J6s sb
 

Playing devil's advocate - at least in a full game, you can have good relative position. Here, the hero has the worst position and the worst position relative to the preflop raiser. Having the button play less aggressively is bad in an implied odds sense, if you flop middle or bottom pair and decide ahead of time to call it down, which is what happened.

Re: 150-300 J6s sb
 

i honestly think this preflop play is okay, only for the pure fact that if you can get your opponents to think you are a player, they'll fear you even more and be apt to semi-bluff you less, fearing that you won't fold especially with a call such as J6s.

Now when the flop comes I like the flop bet, but I honestly think that you should either lead bet the turn or checkraise the turn. Because a King turned, it makes it less likely that either of them have it.


I don't understand why you are checking and calling.

Re: 150-300 J6s sb
 

pardon my ignorance
can you enlighten me on the structure of this game? How big are the chips? How big is the SB?

Re: 150-300 J6s sb
 

[ QUOTE ]
Here, the hero has the worst position and the worst position relative to the preflop raiser

[/ QUOTE ]

You forgot to mention the worst hand.

If they weren't suited, would you play them?

If not, you shouldn't play them here, out of position for a raise. They're suitedness cannot compensate for the fact that you're likely well behind, holding garbage, and playing from out of position against two players who seem to like their hands.

A good indication of this fact would be the fact that you're about to pay off with your lousy second pair. Sure, you might pick up the pot once in awhile, but it sure doesn't look like +EV preflop against most tough players.

I say muck 'em preflop.

Re: 150-300 J6s sb
 

I can't imagine he's betting the river into 2 people with a hand equal to or worse than J-no kicker. for one, he probably wasn't bluffing/semibluffing the turn, because A high would probably rather take a free card, and a hand like TT would probably bet the turn adn take the free showdown. that river really smells like a value bet. With a hand like Ax or an 8 that has showdown value on this board, I can't imagine he'd bet. people tend to either value bet or bluff in spots like this, and a bluff in his spot is just stupid.

I don't quite get the semi-coldcall with that trash, but you're beyond this preflop stuff, so I'm assuming you had a good reason that's not worth discussing.

Re: 150-300 J6s sb
 

[ QUOTE ]
Just a quick observation that this hand is a good example of why I think kickers are way more important with 2nd pair than with top pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

is it because 2nd pair, no kicker is the bottom end of the spectrum for value bets?

Re: 150-300 J6s sb
 

Well, he might not have the worst hand. And even if he's up against, say A-Q and a small pocket pair, he's going to win close to one time in three. mike said this is a good game and that the button is an "okay" player. mike is a lot better than just okay. And if it's a good game, that must mean bb is a bad player, which seems to be confirmed by his having telegraphed his pre-flop intention before mike acted.

FWIW, twodimes shows mike winning 28.92% of the time with Jc-6c against A-Qo and 5-5, 25.72 with J-6o against the same two hands. Knowing the bb was going to call, mike's getting 3.5:1 on his preflop call. The question, I guess, is whether mike will be able to use his superior skills with J-6 out of position to make this clearly +EV.

Re: 150-300 J6s sb
 

and why kickers are more important with J's than with K's.

Re: 150-300 J6s sb
 

[ QUOTE ]
Well, he might not have the worst hand. And even if he's up against, say A-Q and a small pocket pair, he's going to win close to one time in three. mike said this is a good game and that the button is an "okay" player. mike is a lot better than just okay. And if it's a good game, that must mean bb is a bad player, which seems to be confirmed by his having telegraphed his pre-flop intention before mike acted.

FWIW, twodimes shows mike winning 28.92% of the time with Jc-6c against A-Qo and 5-5, 25.72 with J-6o against the same two hands. Knowing the bb was going to call, mike's getting 3.5:1 on his preflop call. The question, I guess, is whether mike will be able to use his superior skills with J-6 out of position to make this clearly +EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's some pretty good perspective.

If he's getting 3.5:1, and he's 28% to have the best hand by the river, I guess you're right, the question is whether his superior skill can outweigh the positional disadvantage.

Re: 150-300 J6s sb
 

"can't imagine he's betting the river into 2 people with a hand equal to or worse than J-no kicker. for one, he probably wasn't bluffing/semibluffing the turn, because A high would probably rather take a free card, and a hand like TT would probably bet the turn adn take the free showdown. that river really smells like a value bet."

I agree with this, but I think that when everyone knows this there is a lot of room for making bizarre bets in three way pots on the river.

-Michael

Re: 150-300 J6s sb
 

Looks like $50 chips, 2-3 blinds.

That's the great thing about Commerce, they have 1,2,3,5,10,20,25,50,100,500,1k,5k chips.

~D

Re: 150-300 J6s sb
 

given how these high limit threehanded games generally play, are these guys folding that many hands on the button?

Re: 150-300 J6s sb
 

But the dealers "have a hard time counting the bets with the $3 chips" in the $9/$18 game.

Or so explains the floor man when I asked him why no less than 5 pots in 45 minutes had the improper number of chips in them before the flop. (Or would have. The one I was involved in, I made her get it right.)

Re: 150-300 J6s sb
 

andy. thank you. the preflop call is correct although it's a little close. the button's preflop raise is obligatory here and was happening like 80%+ of the time. that's a lot of hands guys. J6s does not tend to be a big dog against many of the sorts of hands the other two players have at least some of the time.

results
 

"I would have check called the river and expected a very big hand form the button."

how about J7s because that's what he had and he and i split the pot.

Re: 150-300 J6s sb
 

[ QUOTE ]

I don't understand why you are checking and calling.

[/ QUOTE ]

because if he got raised he would be put to a tough decision.

Re: 150-300 J6s sb
 

Mike,

when I first read this post, I thought it was a fairly clear fold pre-flop. I took a glance at the numbers and am still convinced it is a fold pre-flop, although slightly closer than I previously thought.

You can look at this hand two ways. The first would be to look at the numbers and make a decision. Your equity isn't that bad, when you run the hands to showdown. Moreover, if you play better than your opponents, you might be able to make up a negative difference through superior post-flop play. This is of course also assuming that neither of your opponents have you severely dominated.

Another way to look at is that you have a sub-standard hand in poor position against two hands that stand a good chance of being significantly better than yours. Moreover, you probably will have to show down a winner to take the pot; ace high and king-high will go to the river often (and so they should) in three-handed games. When you flop a pair, how well do you trust your ability to play your hand well?

I discussed this a bit with Duke and recalled that there are times to play a borderline hand against a particular type opponent, and times to pass on a borderline hand against a different type of opponent. If there was a good chance you could get both your opponents to make a mistake and fold hands they should not post-flop, then I think the call is closer; if not, the hand should be folded.

Also, the tell on the big blind should be a reason to -fold- your hand, not call. It improves the pot size, but reduces the chance of your hand being that much better than the hands of your opponent(s).

-Diplomat

Re: 150-300 J6s sb
 

[ QUOTE ]
and why kickers are more important with J's than with K's.

[/ QUOTE ]

Top pairs are less likely to be dominated in short handed games even without a kicker. Mid pairs face domination from bigger kickers and the possibility of top pair. Out of position without a kicker on 2nd pair warrants a fold most of the time if faced with callers.

Having said this I think Mike should have CR'd the turn if it gives him a better opportunity to win the pot, but in most cases I would fold unless I know the button to be a habitual better on most hands.

Lawrence

Re: 150-300 J6s sb
 

Good post. I agree, fold preflop, and the BB calling is a bad thing, not a good thing.

Re: 150-300 J6s sb
 

Dude, 9/18 is just 3-6 with $3 chips. How f-ing hard is it to get right? I guess the dealer talent pool is really depleted these days.