Hand Against Bicyclekick
 

3-handed 30/60.

We're both here cuz of an extremely awful player. Like, amazingly bad.

Button limps. BK completes from SB, I check with Jc6c.

Flop: Kc Qc 6h.
BK bets, I raise, button folds, BK calls.

Turn: 2d.
BK checks, I bet, BK calls.

River: 2s.
BK bets, I raise...


Like or no?

P.S. BK just joined a few minutes ago when it was 4-handed and so we really have no "prior history" to speak of.

Re: Hand Against Bicyclekick
 

No.

Re: Hand Against Bicyclekick
 

Will he fold a queen here? If yes, then I like it and I suspect that he would.

Re: Hand Against Bicyclekick
 

NO

First of all, I don't believe most opponents will fold a better hand here, and you're not going to get called by a worse hand here, so theres no value to this raise IMO. So now we look at it from the stance of working as a pure bluff. With any K he's clearly calling, and if he had something funky like Ac2c he's reraising you. So now we look at the possibility of him having a Q and what he does here. Well if he has a Q he's splitting with any Q other than AQ which you would've raised preflop in this spot. I think if the river doesn't pair the board this raise gains a little more value, but in this spot I don't like it. I just don't see him folding a Q here.

Re: Hand Against Bicyclekick
 

You only have to make him fold one out of four times to show a profit. He might have a busted draw himself. If he's putting you on a busted draw and thus value betting a pair of kings, then you probably lose here.

Re: Hand Against Bicyclekick
 

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You only have to make him fold one out of four times to show a profit. He might have a busted draw himself. If he's putting you on a busted draw and thus value betting a pair of kings, then you probably lose here.

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If the only hand he is beating that BK would bet here is a busted draw, wouldn't calling be the better option? In that case BK only needs to be betting a busted draw one out of 7.5 times to break even.

Re: Hand Against Bicyclekick
 

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If the only hand he is beating that BK would bet here is a busted draw, wouldn't calling be the better option? In that case BK only needs to be betting a busted draw one out of 7.5 times to break even.

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Yes, but you have ZERO chance of pushing him off a better hand with this line.

SpaceAce

Re: Hand Against Bicyclekick
 

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If the only hand he is beating that BK would bet here is a busted draw, wouldn't calling be the better option? In that case BK only needs to be betting a busted draw one out of 7.5 times to break even.

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Yes, but you have ZERO chance of pushing him off a better hand with this line.

SpaceAce

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True, but as I said in my first post, I'm pretty sure you're not pushing him off a better hand, even the 25% you need to be profitable.

Re: Hand Against Bicyclekick
 

I don't think he bets a Q on the river and I don't think he folds kings or better so this raise has negative EV in my eyes. There is some merit to calling the river to catch bluffs, however since you don't have a prior history with him I lean towards folding.

-Ezcheeze

Re: Hand Against Bicyclekick
 

BITCH ASS!

Re: Hand Against Bicyclekick
 

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If he's putting you on a busted draw and thus value betting a pair of kings

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If he's putting you on a busted draw, what would be the point of "value" betting?

Re: Hand Against Bicyclekick
 

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BITCH ASS!

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This would seem to suggest the raise pushed BK off a better hand or that he called with a worse one...

Re: Hand Against Bicyclekick
 

Well he could fold a 6 here so I like it. Whereas you may have had him outkicked originally I suspect that you guys were splitting, you have him crushed(he has no pair) in which case your raise is good to save information, or the outside chance he would fold a better hand. Most of the players I know would not fold a Q here shorthanded, but maybe bicyclekick would [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
-James

Re: Hand Against Bicyclekick
 

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BITCH ASS!

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lol, I take it BK folded to your raise.

Re: Hand Against Bicyclekick
 

I'm curious, why didn't you make your normal play and raise preflop?

Re: Hand Against Bicyclekick
 

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I'm curious, why didn't you make your normal play and raise preflop?

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Haven't you ever heard of slowplaying?

Re: Hand Against Bicyclekick
 

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Most of the players I know would not fold a Q here shorthanded, but maybe bicyclekick would [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
-James

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The thing is most of the players I know wouldn't bet a Q here and they'd def. rather check to induce a bluff, so I think it's a little less likely he bet a queen.

However, I do think the chances of him folding his queen if he bets it are higher than normal, cuz he likes to try to think one-level above me, and he knows I don't really expect a queen to fold to a raise, so he would therefore decide I'm valueraising a king and try to outsmart me by making a laydown.

Re: Hand Against Bicyclekick
 

This goes against my grain, especially short handed, but I would have checked the turn behind him. You have a ton of outs to a strong hand and you would hate to get three bet in this spot.

Then You can show down your sixes, which may be good, for one BB total. Most strong short handed players are going to bet the river after you check the turn almost [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]regardless. With your draw that's good, and if you dont improve you saved money without getting run over.

Re: Hand Against Bicyclekick
 

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in which case your raise is good to save information

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He posted the hand, so i think he blew that reason [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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Well he could fold a 6 here so I like it.

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I agree BK probably would fold a 6 to the re-raise. But, does he value bet it to begin with? If you're leading here, and have a pair of 6's and bet, you know you're getting called by a K, Q, 6 or 2. There's a chance you get called down with A high, but wouldn't Schneids have raised that pre flop against the fish and a weak looking, SB completing, BK? If I have a 6 here, I would probably check, and call to catch a bluff. I just don't see what BK calls the raise with that you beat, and what he folds that you don't.

Re: Hand Against Bicyclekick
 

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BITCH ASS!

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This would seem to suggest the raise pushed BK off a better hand or that he called with a worse one...

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Nah, I had lower clubs actually. I still think he's a bitch! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] This isn't my typical line with a draw like that, but I thought I'd try it out. For some odd reason I thought schneids had clubs too (who knows why...just a feel thing) and I was mostly right.

I think calling on the river is better than raising, cause I ain't folding any made hands that I'm willing to bet.

Re: Hand Against Bicyclekick
 

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I think calling on the river is better than raising, cause I ain't folding any made hands that I'm willing to bet.

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I agree, I thought that after the hand happened but wanted to confirm my suspicions.

Re: Hand Against Bicyclekick
 

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I'm curious, why didn't you make your normal play and raise preflop?
Haven't you ever heard of slowplaying?

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Yeah, but Bicyclekick knows how you play. Raise, that way he'll put you on suited trash.

Re: Hand Against Bicyclekick
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm curious, why didn't you make your normal play and raise preflop?
Haven't you ever heard of slowplaying?

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Yeah, but Bicyclekick knows how you play. Raise, that way he'll put you on suited trash.

[/ QUOTE ]

You wanna know how these hands are doing so far this month in shorthanded sittings?:
T9s: +.12BB/hand
T8s: +1.19 BB/hand
98s: +.66BB BB/hand
87s: +.22BB/hand
76s: +.23BB/hand

I don't feel like opening up my database past this month but I assure you the numbers are quite similar otherwise I wouldn't play these hands so hard. Call it suited trash if you'd like but I call it +EV. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: Hand Against Bicyclekick
 

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Call it suited trash if you'd like but I call it +EV.

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Will you just calm down man.

Re: Hand Against Bicyclekick
 

Schneids, my shorthanded game still sucks pretty bad comparatively. Can you explain to me how you get such good short-handed value out of hands that usually play well in volume pots?

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I don't feel like opening up my database past this month but I assure you the numbers are quite similar otherwise I wouldn't play these hands so hard. Call it suited trash if you'd like but I call it +EV. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

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Re: Hand Against Bicyclekick
 

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Schneids, my shorthanded game still sucks pretty bad comparatively. Can you explain to me how you get such good short-handed value out of hands that usually play well in volume pots?

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I don't feel like opening up my database past this month but I assure you the numbers are quite similar otherwise I wouldn't play these hands so hard. Call it suited trash if you'd like but I call it +EV. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

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cause he's a freaking maniac and gets enough equity from his raises from 'folding equity'.

Re: Hand Against Bicyclekick
 

My typical opponents defend their blinds too much and then give up quickly when the flop is ace or king high and they whiffed. So like, they're easily folding more than once in 4-5 times when I bet the flop.

Plus there are plenty of times I flop pairs and they're good. And I'm usually very in-sync with my opponents and quite often willing to go to war w/o top pair.

Basically I'm hyper aggressive in position, and somewhat passive from the blinds.

Re: Hand Against Bicyclekick
 

Ah, OK. I'm assuming the hands he posted gain most of their +EV only when he's in the CO or button or whenever else he's in relative position?

Edit: Woops, posted this right after you replied, Schneids.

Re: Hand Against Bicyclekick
 

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cause he's a freaking maniac and gets enough equity from his raises from 'folding equity'.

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Yeah I had typed that most 2+2ers that sit with me SH tell me I play like a maniac, but then deleted it. In fact, it's very systematic, controlled aggression [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: Hand Against Bicyclekick
 

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[ QUOTE ]

cause he's a freaking maniac and gets enough equity from his raises from 'folding equity'.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I had typed that most 2+2ers that sit with me SH tell me I play like a maniac, but then deleted it. In fact, it's very systematic, controlled aggression [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

That, combined with his mastery of the 2 outer, makes him an annoying opponent

Re: Hand Against Bicyclekick
 

Schneids,have you ever played short with CMO? I am curious to know how you deal with his aggressive play,or any other player with his playing style.

Re: Hand Against Bicyclekick
 

Schneids OWNS CMO.

Re: Hand Against Bicyclekick
 

Completing the SB here screams suited trash to me. Betting the river comfirms it.

Re: Hand Against Bicyclekick
 

really?

Re: Hand Against Bicyclekick
 

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really?

[/ QUOTE ]

really.

Re: Hand Against Bicyclekick
 

awfully bold for someone whom I can't say I even know...
have we played together?
also, just for the sake of presenting a couple facts, I don't believe I've ever played short handed with schneids... could be wrong, but i dont think so

Re: Hand Against Bicyclekick
 

Really, really?
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really?

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really.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Hand Against Bicyclekick
 

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awfully bold for someone whom I can't say I even know...
have we played together?
also, just for the sake of presenting a couple facts, I don't believe I've ever played short handed with schneids... could be wrong, but i dont think so

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No, I don't know you nor do I think we've played together. When you first posted I thought you were a troll as people've been messin with me lately. I still am not convinced you're not, but whatever. If you're really CMO no offence, I just remember a hand schneider played against you where he made quite a bit of money. I don't really know if he OWNS you i haven't seen you in action, it was just an amusing hand.

I'll be up next wednesday. If I see you I'll introduce myself.

Re: Hand Against Bicyclekick
 

Fair enough,

I am merely an infrequent reader who was trying to figure out who the third player in the three handed game was (I assume Dennis) when I stumbled upon something that said that Schneids owned me... though I do respect his play, I guess I dont think that he owns me just yet(lol)...

As far as meeting you, it'll have to be after the holiday as I am out of town for the next 8 days or so...

Re: Hand Against Bicyclekick
 

[ QUOTE ]
Fair enough,

I am merely an infrequent reader who was trying to figure out who the third player in the three handed game was (I assume Dennis) when I stumbled upon something that said that Schneids owned me... though I do respect his play, I guess I dont think that he owns me just yet(lol)...

As far as meeting you, it'll have to be after the holiday as I am out of town for the next 8 days or so...

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I don't think it was 3 handed. Maybe more like 4 or 5 handed. At least that's how I remember it.

I probably wont make it there after the hollidays. We're going to vegas...

Some other time.