AKs hits flop, faces pot bet
 

Hi, all.

Villain (UTG+1) has not been sitting at the table long -- have only seen about 20 hands. In that time he raised preflop once and called a few times, so he's no maniac. Beyond that I can't say.

Party Poker $50 No-Limit Hold'em, $1 BB (10 handed) converter

MP3 ($49)
CO ($41.7)
Button ($62.2)
Hero ($49)
BB ($146.4)
UTG ($22.3)
UTG+1 ($47)
UTG+2 ($70.5)
MP1 ($25.05)
MP2 ($46.3)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $0.5.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises to $3</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP3 calls $3, CO calls $3, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero (poster) calls $2.50, BB calls $2.

Flop: ($15) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB folds, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets $14.25</font>, MP3 folds, CO folds, Hero?

So my AKs has hit the flop, but it looks like the villain also likes this flop. I really wasn't sure what to do here. Of course I'm hoping he has AQ or KJ or something, but if he's really as conservative with his preflop raises as my tiny sample size indicates (only seen 1 in 20 hands) then a lot of his possible hands either beat me or we're tied (e.g., AA, KK, QQ, AK, KQ).

So what would you do? It looks to me like folding or raising all-in are the only two options, and folding seems incredibly weak here, but still...

Thoughts?

Of course you're welcome to beat up on me for checking the flop -- if I'd bet out things might have been easier.

Re: AKs hits flop, faces pot bet
 

I wouldn't check the flop, especially if I'm in EP. I say lead for 1/2-2/3 pot sized bet on the flop, reevaluate against aggression. That's the problem with checking relatively weak hands like TPTK on a flop like this. You get absolutely no information. Against a pre-flop raise, chances are that the best you could hope for is a split pot, but you could very easily be behind.

Re: AKs hits flop, faces pot bet
 

i'd call and then check the turn. the only decent draw is JT, and it's unlikely he has that.

this way you might be able to get a little more on the river against a hand like KJ or AQ (assuming he checks behind on the turn with these hands, which we probably will).

i don't think you can let this one go. getting your money in with TPTK for 50 bb's in a raised pot = good times.

Re: AKs hits flop, faces pot bet
 

[ QUOTE ]
i'd call and then check the turn. the only decent draw is JT, and it's unlikely he has that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks, schwza. It's a line I hadn't considered, but I can see your reasoning. Just to check though: if a blank comes on the turn and he pushes, we're calling, right?

Re: AKs hits flop, faces pot bet
 

Ugh, tough spot. Youre out of position, but he's betting with any hand he raised with. I dont like raising here, as he will fold any hand that you beat. I agree folding is too weak. I'd just call, and see what his turn action is. If he pushes the turn, id be inclined to fold, if he checks behind, id be inclined to half pot the river.

Re: AKs hits flop, faces pot bet
 

you put yourself in a lot of trouble with that flop check.Only time you should check with AK when you hit is when you plan on check raising.

why are all of you guys saying folding is too weak? You can find another spot.

I really don't like the call the flop bet, check fold the turn as even if villain has AK or KJ, hes going to bet the turn if checked to. If he is bluffing with Kj, AQ, and he bets 1/2 pot on the turn, what do you do? the call the flop bet, check the turn line gives you no info. The Raise the flop line will tell you if he is bluffing but thats about it. He'll go all in with anything else.Seeing as how both of my options aren't that great, I don't think folding is that bad here. you lose $3, oh well.

my guts tells me he has AK as well. small possibility of KQ. definitely not a set. If he hit the set, seeing as its a rainbow board, I just don't see him betting the flop that strongly after 3 checks. And if he is pretty solid, UTG raise preflop with KQ is a bit questionable.

Re: AKs hits flop, faces pot bet
 

[ QUOTE ]


you put yourself in a lot of trouble with that flop check.Only time you should check with AK when you hit is when you plan on check raising.


[/ QUOTE ]

Come on bro, you know there are other times you should check other than check-raising. Blanket statements are always wrong [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: AKs hits flop, faces pot bet
 

alright alright thats true. being that I'm the biggest advocate of no blanket statements, I admit my wrong.

Re: AKs hits flop, faces pot bet
 

The pre-flop raiser raised when it was checked to him. He could have anything from KK to nothing, although I think if he had KK or something close to as good, the standard play for most would be to slowplay.

I would re-raise $15 more. If he re-re-raises you, fold. If he folds, great. If he calls well, that's a pickle. This leaves you with $16 -- you can either bet out all-in on the turn and hope he folds, or checkfold the rest of the way.

Since you've gotten several responses, and none of them are anything like this, I'm wondering if others might tell me what is wrong with this play.

Re: AKs hits flop, faces pot bet
 

the reraise line will let you know if he is bluffing but if he has a hand I believe he will go all in if you reraise, even if he has AK.which will prompt you to fold.

I still like this line better than the call the flop, check the turn though.

After reading the hand again, I'm pretty certain villain does not have KQ. I just don't see villain raising KQ from UTG+1 in a full ring game given his description. His flop bet seems too strong for KK or QQ. I'm almost certain he is on AK now. This makes me like the reraise flop line more.

Re: AKs hits flop, faces pot bet
 

So you're the guy who min-raises me all day on party!

Want your money back? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: AKs hits flop, faces pot bet
 

Since when is a $15 raise (1/2 pot) a min-raise in a $1BB game?

Re: AKs hits flop, faces pot bet
 

well..it is the minimum you can raise. actually thats $14.25.
but it is the min raise.

anyways, I don't think its that bad. sometimes the minraise reps more strength than a bigger raise. and here you are definitely raising for info/trying to fold out a tying hand instead of raising for value.

I don't find the minraise that bad here although it has a bad rap at 2+2.

Re: AKs hits flop, faces pot bet
 

[ QUOTE ]


why are all of you guys saying folding is too weak? You can find another spot.

[/ QUOTE ]


If you’re going to fold on the flop after hitting TPTK simply because the preflop raiser bet the flop, then you shouldn’t have called preflop to begin with as you got the flop you wanted.

I like check-calling here against more aggressive opponents and check-raising vs. more passive ones. Leading out on this flop is unlikely to fold hands better than yours but will chase away ones worse than yours. You also can get a read on what hand he might have, and I would rule out a set here as those hands would bet smaller than the pot. AA/JJ/TT/AK/AQ are all possible.

--Greg

Re: AKs hits flop, faces pot bet
 

OK, so it's slightly above the minium raise, but it's also more than 1/2 the pot and it's almost 1/3 of a buy-in at the table. Not exactly chump change in this situation. If Wayfare is calling/re-raising all raises like this because they are "min-raises", then maybe we should be asking him if he'd like his money back.

Re: AKs hits flop, faces pot bet
 

Hi Eric,

My first statement was sarcastic, and here's why:

Are you going to check/fold when your min-raise gets called? Are you going to fold if you get reraised even when you are getting 5-1? I dont think so in either case. I see a couple of benefits to the min raise -- it might get AQ pot stuck, but it sure isn't leaving you any wiggle room if you are beat. I would either decide to go all the way with this hand or not on the turn, and min-raising is one way to go all the way. I do not think it is the best way, and here's why:

I think calling and reevaluating is a better play all around. You can check it down if he checks back on the next street, and you can evaluate your pot odds better based on the previous action. You can also check-raise the turn all in to try to snap off another AK and scoop. You're in a better spot to maximize your winnings and minimize your losses; i.e. when you are ahead he will keep putting in money but you don't give him much chance to get off the hook. If you think you are behind you should fold now -- not an atrocious play. The main advantage check-calling here has over min-raising is that he won't fold a pair of jacks or something of that nature based on your "call," (and might put in more on future streets) whereas a good player would fold it if he was minraised.

I was sort of joking about the "money back" comment, but I hardly ever see this being a good play. I think if you look around at the posts I make on these forums you will see that I usually am not the one giving money back. Just FYI since you have all of 17 posts (and a quarter of those on this one thread).

And by the way, you seem to not understand what a "min raise" is. It is the raise of the smallest amount you are allowed to raise, which is usually the bet you are facing at the time. Now there are $1 min raises and $100 min-raises, but they are all min-raises.

Re: AKs hits flop, faces pot bet
 

I agree fully greg. however usually I don't have this problem as I lead out on the flop with TPTK. Since the hero made the mistake of checking the flop and clearly does not feel comfortable playing for the rest of his stack, perhaps folding and taking the $3 loss as a lesson learned is not that bad a way to go. That was all I was implying.

Re: AKs hits flop, faces pot bet
 

Well, I personally am never stuck in this situation because I bet out pot-size on the flop and fold to a re-raise. However, yes, if I get re-re-raised, I am folding even at 5-1 (although I only count 4-1). I personally have terrible results going all-in after being re-raised with TPTK. If it is a tourney, that's one thing because you are stuck either way, but I'd prefer to save that $16 and re-load for $34 rather than $50.

Like I mentioned, you really are stuck if you get only called. Unless a scare card comes, and I'm not really sure what that is -- Queen maybe, I'm probably pushing in on the turn praying for a fold or split pot. Check/fold seems a valid option here also, unless the bet is something pathetic like $5.

Note that I'm basing the raise on a substantial amount of fold equity. I think this guy is going to raise in this situation a large percentage of the time regardless of whether he hit the flop or not.

Re: AKs hits flop, faces pot bet
 

When you lead this flop and get raised, you are folding TPTK already? I don't like it...

Re: AKs hits flop, faces pot bet
 

Before i say anything.... BET THE FLOP Its a tough position now since villian hasnt been around long and its hard to tell if hes playing tight or not. I think you call this one and see what he does on the turn. Its unlikely that he has a set unless it is 6's because with all the pre-flop action if he had hit a set of k's or q's he would figure someone for another king or queen and try to slow play this. I think you are up against 3 possible hands, (besides a bluff); aa, aq, or kq with kq being the most unlikely since he was utg+1. Hard to tell though because hes only been at the table for a few hands. Call and see turn. Try to represent a stronger hand then him by betting the turn now. Only way to get out of that checking mess you started =)

Re: AKs hits flop, faces pot bet
 

So you are going to go to the felt every time with TPTK? If you call a re-raise that leaves you with 1/4 of the pot out of position to a guy who just re-raised you with 2 rounds of betting yet to come. I think the only time you are throwing away money in this situation by folding is if the villain has AK also. But I'd like to know what exactly you would do and why -- I'm definitely not claiming to be an expert.

Re: AKs hits flop, faces pot bet
 

[ QUOTE ]
When you lead this flop and get raised, you are folding TPTK already? I don't like it...

[/ QUOTE ]

You play back at a re-raiser with TPTK and no reads?

Do you re-raise him all in? Push? Smoothcall?

Re: AKs hits flop, faces pot bet
 

First off, when you bet and someone raises, that is not a reraise, it is a raise. I will now read the rest of the post. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

My answer is that it depends on the opponent.
I often check-call AK on this type of board against a very agro opponent because I am either way ahead or way behind but am ahead enough to make it profitable to continue. If they choose to fire again on the turn I can evaluate, but often times people shut down and check back, leaving me to value bet the end (or check/call depending on the opponent).

Against some opponents it is definately better to lead this flop and fold to any raise, because you know they will raise only if they can beat TPTK. A probe bet of like 2/3 of the pot is often enough to freeze them and let you know you are ahead going in to the turn. The only thing scaring you on the turn would be if they flopped a set, and this is not happening enough to make it worth you worrying about all that much (esp. since they would need to have KK/QQ to have one and you already have a K). The problem with leading with a pot sized bet and the probe bet is that if you are called you have built a $45 pot with $30 left and two streets to go. If you are laying down tptk at PP50 6-max when you will be getting this much value for your money, I doubt it is the highest EV play.

If you are not comfortable playing AK out of position in a raised pot it is not disasterous to fold it. However, I think just calling a raise behind you can be profitable enough when you decide to trap. Again, against this type of action I would probably continue with the hand.

Results and thanks
 

Hello, all.

Thanks very much for the useful feedback. I see now far more clearly than I did at the time the extent to which the flop check gets me in all sorts of trouble. From memory this was just a stupid error, perhaps brought on by a run of hands in which my flop bets kept getting raised all-in. (It's not my usual play when AK hits, honest.) Inexcusable.

The question of how to handle the situation as described, after I'd checked, is really interesting. I can see both sides and now I think I'd probably go with the call-and-reassess-on-turn view. But the important thing is not to get myself into such a crappy situation by never checking such a flop again!

For those of you who care about results: <font color="white">villain had AA and my hand is not good</font>.

Cheers.

Re: Results and thanks
 

I would probably checkraise all-in on the flop. Here is why:

If he does indeed also have AK (which it appears he does), you will have folding equity, and take it down. IMO once you call the flop you are basically committed for the rest of the hand. So why let him bet when he has you and check when he doesn't. Are you going to fold to a bet on the turn when a blank hits? I wouldn't, with these short of stacks. Push in and hope they all fold.