The Butcher
 

Live 10/20....playing like it's a 1/2....great game

I get AsKh in the BB.....MP 1 open raises, Co 3-bets, button calls cold, SB calls...I call, and MP 1 caps.....5 players to the flop...The only player who seems to know what's going on is MP1....

Flop is

Ks Th 3c

Checked to MP1 who bets, all called and I decide that I'm going to checkraise a safe turn....

Turn is 2d....

Sweet.....Everyone checks.....Not sweet

the river is a J of clubs, and now I decide I don't know what to do, so I'll just check call....except no one bets and I win.....

So, I think I misplayed this hand on every street, and I'd like for you to tell me what I should do differently next time....thanks

Re: The Butcher
 

lead into the PFR on the flop and hope he raises it and clears out the field.
Its a big pot, be aggressive, be be aggressive. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: The Butcher
 

PF:Cap
Flop:Checkraise
Turn/River:Bet out as long as board stays reasonably safe. What do others think of this as this is the reasoning that would first come to me if I was playing.

Re: The Butcher
 

cap preflop. definetly c/r thsi flop. the board is fairly innocuous and you can trap all the limpers for 2sb on the flop. bet the turn and river.

Re: The Butcher
 

I didn't cap because of a glance at MP1, who was holding the cap bet in his hand....so I thought I'd keep my hand value hidden.....

I thought about C/R the flop, but I figured the turn C/R would be the best place to get value out of this hand...

If the turn checkraise was successful, would you still be recommending a flop C/R??

I don't usually checkraise the flop against preflop raisers when AK flops top pair, but maybe I should be....reasons??

Re: The Butcher
 

I dont like trapping people in the pot here.
the pot has 20 sb already,
people have odds to draw at just about anything, you want them to fold not be trapped to hit 2 pair on you in a monster pot.

you hope somebody makes the mistake of laying down middle pair.

Re: The Butcher
 

I liked the turn checkraise attempt myself. I probably would have bet the river though.

Re: The Butcher
 

Hi Alex,

Great title. I don't see a cap by you preflop as advantageous. You are in a game where someone will cap anyway, you're out of position, and can get in stealth mode. Calling is fine.

Unfortunately, you need to expect pf raiser/capper to bet the flop, so a flop check-raise attempt is futile. I would undoubtedly lead on the flop and hope his raises out the field. This will better your chance of winning this large pot.

You mentioned that pf raiser is the only one who knows what he's doing. If he feels he's behind (AQs,QQ,JJ?), then he probably wouldn't lead in a large field with nothing. I don't like the turn check-raise attempt.

Bet the river.

Re: The Butcher
 

i used to do things like this as well...everybody does...then you learn and move on and improve, as you will.

in this pot, with those people in your position you need to play straightforward in this pot imo. bet raise etc...

elminate people when you can...checking won't do that here so you bet.

on the river after everyone checks you must bet!!
-Barron

Re: The Butcher
 

When ever it's capped preflop like this, I just play it straight forward..bet and hope mp1 raises so you can reraise, the pots big enough already so its important to try and get people to fold hands that have five outs like A3 and the best way to do this is bet into the capper.

If you play it like you did I think you have to check raise after the MP1 bets on the flop and everyone calls, you had the chance to get at least 4 more SB and MP1 may be scared to bet on the turn when everyone calls.

I see alot of hands like this that are capped preflop multi handed get capped on the flop, you just need to jump start things.

-Pete

Re: The Butcher
 

Thanks for the advice guys, it's much appreciated

Re: The Butcher
 

when all those monkeys call the flop for one bet you should checkraise the flop. you just love that most of the time most of them are sitting there w/ 2-5 outs max and theyre committed to seeing the next street since theyve already put one bet in.

Re: The Butcher
 

I have questions/comments on the suggested flop play. In particular the advice to bet the flop, hoping to get raised and clear the field. I think going for the CR on this flop is a better play than betting.


Some reasons why:

First you need MP1 to raise you, which is not guaranteed. Then you need the 4 outers to fold for 2 cold. I think the second part is highly unlikely. These players have shown the ability to call 3 cold already. The chances of them folding their gutshots for 2 more in a mega pot are very slim.

As to the first part, if you only get called they all get to draw for only 1 SB. I would put the chances of getting a checkraise in somewhere at close to a 100%.

The hands that might fold for 2 cold are the ones you want to call. Like the two guys with 22 and A7, for example. I would guess getting the chance to 3 bet would be about same by either checking or betting.

My point is there isn't going to be any "clearing" on the flop. Why not get at least a sure 2 SBs from everyone? Comments on my probable illogical insights are welcome.

Re: The Butcher
 

[ QUOTE ]
Checked to MP1 who bets, all called and I decide that I'm going to checkraise a safe turn....

[/ QUOTE ]
I think I would c/r here because either I will build a big pot, or I could get a MP to incorrectly lay down middle pair. I like either one.

This keeps you out of trouble with a blown turn checkraise.

Re: The Butcher
 

Hey Alex,

What was your plan if the turn is bet and raised?

GoT

Re: The Butcher
 

I did not checkraise the flop because I wanted the ability to trap everyone for big bets on the turn....I'm not too worried about players calling for their gutters...I think there isn't much I can do to make this particular lot fold those types of hands.....I also don't particularly want to lose those players either, so I wouldn't be thrilled if I led and and was raised by the PFR....He could very well be ahead of me, and I want all the other players coming along if that is the case....

If the turn was bet and raised, I would be calling down...

That was my thought process on this hand.......After going over the responses, I would checkraise the flop and lead the turn next time......

Re: The Butcher
 

Do NOT CR flop. The pot is big enuff, you want to win it ASAP. Checkraise wont knock out anyone. Don't outsmart yourself. Lead out the whole way.

Re: The Butcher
 

Yeah great idea. And now you've made a pot so big that the two pair draws are correct to call your big bet on the turn.
I've gotta disagree with you Mike. Better to bet right out on the flop. Betting right into the pre-flop raiser suggests that you hit the flop hard. And you want to chase out the chasers. There's enuff money in the pot that you want to maximize your chance of taking it down.

Re: The Butcher
 

weve went over this before. if you run the numbers a flop checkraise here is better given your position. you will lose the pot a little more but it's more than made up for by those times people with very few outs are putting in multiple bets. when someone with something like JJ or 88 or QQ here is forced to put in 2-3 bets on the flop, your AK is just hogging EV like crazy. if they come along for one bet though youre really hating it. if a name poster wants to come along and show hard math as to why im wrong ill be happy to stand corrected, but, again, im pretty sure weve went over this exact problem several times on here and the numbers supported my view.

btw im a big proponent of the do everything you can to win the large pots way of thinking. but normally that means waiting until the turn, and given the position relative to the preflop capper it seems like it may be impossible to thin the field. a flop bet will sometimes have the effect of slowing absolutely everyone down on that board and you dont want people calling one bet at a time to the river as much as you want them trapped for multiple bets drawing very thin, despite the large pot. in other words, the only way for your opponents to be punished here is for them to have to peel for 2-3 bets on the flop. if you bet out the whole way and let them come for one bet, one bet, one bet you will be giving them the right price to continue with virtually anything.

Re: The Butcher
 

[ QUOTE ]
given the position relative to the preflop capper it seems like it may be impossible to thin the field. a flop bet will sometimes have the effect of slowing absolutely everyone down on that board and you dont want people calling one bet at a time to the river as much as you want them trapped for multiple bets drawing very thin, despite the large pot.

[/ QUOTE ]


That is exactly why I went for the turn checkraise.....I still think it's not a bad idea, but obviously it's more of a sure thing on the flop....

Re: The Butcher
 

I think if you lead you will get raised and you can 3 bet, if its not 3 bet back to you. The table is clearly very aggressive. Leading gets the most bets in, and cuts the odds to all the people drawing. I dont see the table shutting down, you likely have a KQ or AK out there along with yours that will pump the pot.
1 bet in this pot and they wont put you on a monster, your checkraise would show more stregnth.

Re: The Butcher
 

The table was aggressive, but I really don't like the idea of facing 3 players with 2 bets if I'm behind, or up against another AK...That would be the worst possible scenario in this situation....I would much rather checkraise and be 3-bet, (which is likely if the original raiser does hold AK) because the callers would be tied to the pot already...

Re: The Butcher
 

[ QUOTE ]
The table is clearly very aggressive.

[/ QUOTE ]
This doesn't seem clear to me at all. In fact, I might characterize a table where mutli-way pots go one bet on the flop and check around on the turn and river as "passive".

Re: The Butcher
 

I agree, I was basing this on preflop action.

Especially mp1, I just believe that if you bet mp1 will raise.

The central argument is weather or not you want the others in the pot, or if you want them out.

We want to keep hands that we have dominated in, i.e. A-small pair, and also pocket pairs like QQ to stay.

we want hands like 9-10 to fold.

I still think that leading the flop is the best play, but its really close.

If you check raise you will trap the 2 outers for sure, but the 5 outers will also stay which is bad.

If you bet and get raised, you'll probly get a couple folds and a couple bad calls. QQ might call the 2 cold. 9-10 could possibly fold. You can 3 bet and trap fewer hands in for more bets. The origional raiser could have QQ and he would often raise your lead.
So you'll go the turn say 3 handed for 3 bets instead of 5 handed for 2 bets. You have fewer cards that beat you and 1 less sb.

Thats why I think leading is best. I like to give my opponents the opportunity to make a mistake, instead of trapping them in by giving them decent odds.

If you expect the table to shut down if you lead then check raise. If you expect mp1 to raise you if you lead then lead.

Re: The Butcher
 

For once I agree with Mike L! I would check-raise this flop pretty much every time. The people advocating a flop bet are all assuming that MP1 will raise. He may not. On the other hand, you will be able to check-raise the flop here almost every time. The only times when you may not get the chance is when MP1 hits the flop hard, i.e. he has KK or TT, but those times really suck for you anyway. In fact, if MP1 missed, it may even get checked to LP who will bet and allow you to force the field to either put 2 SB in cold or fold.

Going for a turn check-raise is a bad idea precisely because of what happened. It's actually not too uncommon for players to check the turn here if they don't have a K or better.

But after you screwed up on the turn, the river is a mandatory value bet!

Re: The Butcher
 

Yeah, I was flustered after the turn whiff, I know that I have to bet the river here.....

You should have seen my face after the hand...I'm sure that I was looking off into the distance with a pained look for waaaaaay too long

Re: The Butcher
 

Go for a flop check raise no matter if the bet comes in early or late position, maybe the origional bettor 3-bets it (hopefully with KQ not AA) in which case you cap and lead the turn.

In loose games like this I think you'll find that you'll get as much, if not more, total money in the pot by playing hands fast on the flop as opposed to waiting to get tricky on the turn. Even with very strong hands such as the nut flush or straights or sets alot of times you'll be better off pounding on the flop, but top pairs over pairs and 2 pair hands you should most definately pound on the flop in these loose games with big pots. Most of the times I flop huge hands such as quads or boats I'll just come out betting on the flop unless I think there is a good reason to believe I can get in a trapping check-raise.

With fast playing out of position you'll never miss alot of bets due to check throughs. You will miss out on some big street raises, but often it will be made up for by getting 3 or 4 bets in on the flop. I don't know about your games, but in my games the button will often raise on the flop going for the free card play or just to see where he stands. An added side bonus of just betting out when you have a great hand is people that notice will get a little more careful about drawing to overcards or raising weaker hands against you on the turn or river.

This hand is a good example of why jamming on the flop is important. In these loose multi-way games, passive or aggressive, you should try to eliminate the trickyness as much as possible and just jam the pot at every opportunity with the best hand.

Re: The Butcher
 

I see your point.
My usual play in a multiway pot with top pair is to try to thin the field.
My rationale for leading out is:
A. The pre-flop raiser may raise (if only to slow me down), and thin it out.
B. If no raise on flop, people will be more inclined to drop when I bet the turn.

But I understand that when you CR, you turn what looked like a good call of one bet on the flop into a mistake for some players. Maybe this does give you enough equity. I'm not sure you've convinced me, but I'm second guessing myself. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: The Butcher
 

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't cap because of a glance at MP1, who was holding the cap bet in his hand....so I thought I'd keep my hand value hidden.....

[/ QUOTE ]


I think you really out-thought and over-read the situation here.
If it's playing so crazy then keeping your hand value hidden might not be noticed anyway.

I'm not much of a B&M player....but I think reads like the one in this situation can be over-rated and just lead to fancy-play syndrome.
Some reads are good (knowing which guy to isolate a raise with your AQo or something like that...and which guys to stay away from)...but here I think failing to cap PF with AK and then getting too fancy after the flop proved very costly.


Big pot....get super-duper aggro until someone else shows they actually like the flop also.


Someone mentioned trapping players in with their 2-5 outers.
The pot is big enough now where I would prefer everyone fold....but if they are drawing thin that's fine too.

But I'm still going to bet out....let them chase me.

Re: The Butcher
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think you really out-thought and over-read the situation here.
If it's playing so crazy then keeping your hand value hidden might not be noticed anyway.


[/ QUOTE ]

I really disagree...He was going to cap...He was that kind of player, and I think he probably even muttered something about it as soon as it was 3-bet....

I think keeping my hand value hidden here isn't overthinking......If I cap and miss the flop, I probably still bet, and that could get ugly for me....