ok think carefully about this one and then answer
 

me and gabe totally disagreed about the turn decision on this hand i sweated him on via cell phone.

great 20-40 live game. he had A5o and openraised in the cutoff, bb who he describes as awful loose aggressive and dumb, reraises, gabe calls.

the flop is K52 rainbow. check, check.

now here's the part we disagreed on: the turn is a 3. bb bets. according to gabe this could be a wide range of hands he's betting here since the flop checking induced the bb to bet the turn, so let's take that as a given. in other words it could be things like JT, QT, pair of kings, pocket kings, other pocket pairs, A high hands, other big made hands, other mediocre made hands, draws, etc, etc. gabe also said that the guy would bluff w/ a lot of those bluff hands on the river if he missed and gabe just called the turn. also he would fold a lot of his more hopeless seeming bluffs (things like QT) on the turn if gabe raises. there are definitely some hands (like 99, etc, okay made hands) that bb will call a turn raise with and then check the river with, but he may check the river with if gabe flat calls the river. it should be pretty clear which way i leaned by what ive said. so what should gabe do and what should his plans be for the rest of the hand?

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I'm currently on a 100 BB downturn and just broke up with my girlfriend, so I'm not in the mood to think much and apologize in advance.

However, I can't get past the flop. Why check? I think you are at least better than even money to be ahead, and have lost control of the pot. The result? No clue as to what to do on the turn because, as you mention, he could have literally anything at this point.

TSP

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He should call. The player you described will probably fire again on the river with the JT QJ and such hands, and will reraise the turn with his monsters if you raise it. And he will not fold any mid pocket pair.

So i think a call is in order. You make the same when ahead, and lose the least when behind.

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The problem with the call is that you lose a decent pot one out of seven when he is bluffing with QT, QJ or JT.

lars

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I prefer to do my value-bet thing here and now and raise so I can check/check the river in good conscience if I don't improve.

Legian

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yeah but the fact that he gains the extra BB every time he just calls the turn (and the BB misses) makes it break even wether or not to raise if BB has QJ.

If BB will check/fold the river with QJ after missing, a raise is in order. But i think this player will fire again.

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The most interesting part of this post was the concept of sweating someone via cell phone. Can you explain how this works? Did he have you on the line the whole time and say things like "Hey, Mike, an awful loose aggressive and dumb guy just reraised my A5o from the big blind. The dealers about to bring the flop". ?

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no he gave me the details after the hand went down. i was on hold and giggling loudly as i normally do when i hear gabe say "raise". hysterical stuff. then i ask "did you win?" and he says "no" and we go back to him listening to me go on like a broken record about how awful a player i am.

hysterical stuff.

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To me, the key thing is to give me the best possible chance of winning the pot. So I'd raise the turn so that he'd have the chance to either fold or check to me on the river. Since he could have anything including a set of kings, jack high, and everything in between, I'd consider my hand from a value perspective and second pair with top kicker would be enough for a raise too.

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Why would an awful playing loose aggressive guy 3-bet PF and then check the flop HU? Doesn't that usually spell trouble?

If this is a spot where Gabe can confidently fold to a 3-bet if raised (despite this guy's aggressiveness) then yes raise on the turn. If that confidence doesn't exist then call down and hope to catch the guy on a bluff with high-cards.

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1. Call with the intention of calling down.
2. Fold.
3. Raise the turn.

Am I nuts? If you get 3-bet on the turn by a "awful loose aggressive and dumb" player, do you then 4-bet? Or fold? Yikes. I want that scenario in a different zip code.

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My instincts are to raise and fold to the three bet.

One point that has not been made is that if the guy is really bad, the chips will circulate again. So fold, call or raise -- not really all that important against an opponent like this.

Now the tight LOL (little old lady) two seats to my right last night and running hot -- when she got chips, she kept 'em.

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"To me, the key thing is to give me the best possible chance of winning the pot."

ok but i want to be double clear here that he will NEVER fold a better hand on the turn when you raise. he will not fold 66 or better.

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[ QUOTE ]
"To me, the key thing is to give me the best possible chance of winning the pot."

ok but i want to be double clear here that he will NEVER fold a better hand on the turn when you raise. he will not fold 66 or better.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then aren't the advantages of raising the turn like...none?

The guy that bets QJ on the turn will on the river as well, right?

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It seems as though you will never get a better hand to fold, but that he will value bet twice and you will call. If you raise and get reraised, you have virtually no shot of winning(I can figure you for 2 outs by catching a 5) so your raise doesnt give up that much. The only difference in the hand seems to be gettting him to fold those overcards, which, all else being almost equal, seems like a good idea.

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[ QUOTE ]
great 20-40 live game. he had A5o and openraised in the cutoff, bb who he describes as awful loose aggressive and dumb, reraises, gabe calls. the flop is K52 rainbow. check, check.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know you are posting about the turn but I want to back up. The flop check by the awful LAG dumb BB is very suspicious after three betting pre flop. I think the liklihood that Gabe is up against a huge hand (e.g., KK or even AK) has gone up quite a bit. That said, I'd bet the flop and expect the huge hand to just call (many mediocre hands would call too). If the BB checks the turn (as a continuation of his slowplay) I'd probably bet and fold to a checkraise (unless I spiked a five which I would call down since AK is just as reasonable a hand as KK with this line).

~ Rick

PS Too tired to get to the turn. Was this tonight cause the game he was in looked great?

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If he's not likely to fold a better hand, I'd just call him out. Isn't that about textbook for playing the bluffhappy?

I mean, say he has QJ. He's charging himself 1 bet to make 3 on a 7-1 shot. Why do you want him to fold a lesser hand here which is all he'll fold if you raise? Along with his additional bluff on the river that you can pick up.

I see a calldown. Weak a play as it looks like.

b

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Mike,

If I were Gabe, i would have folded the turn. Based on your description of the LAG, it sounds like he's getting tricky and holding back a monstrous hand. FOLD I say... FOLLLLDDD!!!

Lawrence

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Sounds like a call on the turn? Raise a river 5, 4, A. Check behind on the river unless he improves.

No point in raising the turn since
1: the opponent will fold his bluffs to the turn raise, bluffs that he'd often continue with on the river, thus Gabe miss out on another BB "most" of the time (sometimes the opponent will hit his cards on the river, will he bet them though?)
2: Gabe will sometimes get 3-bet by better hands forcing him to fold when he sometimes would've improved to the winning hand on the river?
3: he'll sometimes get to showdown for 1 BB even when he's beat.

Seems a bit too easy, so I'm sure I'm missing something (or a lot [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]).

The check beind on the flop was because he'll be check-raised a LOT without really gaining any more information as to where he stands?

Edit: If the pot had been bigger (how much bigger?), Gabe should be more inclined to raise to get the BB to fold overcards to his pair, right?

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"ok but i want to be double clear here that he will NEVER fold a better hand on the turn when you raise. he will not fold 66 or better."

Would he call a raise with a pair of 2's or 3's or 4's?

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If you’re right about the guy bluffing the river 100% of the time, then you’re correct. Checking and calling is better when he has hands like QJ or most other random non-pair hands 5 to K, but it’s close, only like $2 better. I need to listen to you and stop being so over aggressive.

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to have the best chance of winning, i would think you'd really want to see the river here, likely having 6 clean outs with an additional 3 to make a possible winner. folding is too weak against a LAG, but raising and facing a 3-bet would not be fun when A)you may be ahead, and B)you have so many outs to make a likely winner.

call.

cheers!