AQ flops middle pair.
 

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed)

UTG and UTG+1 have only been at the table for an orbit or so, neither has impressed me with their play so far.

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="CC3333">UTG raises</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button calls, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

I don't want to muck AQ and I think 3-betting makes it easier to play from the flop on.

Flop: (13.50 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">UTG bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, Hero calls, Button calls, UTG calls.

I think I may be ahead, and if not, I have 5 outs to two pair or better and I'm getting 8:1.

Turn: (10.75 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, Hero calls, Button calls, UTG folds.

Same thing, and I'm getting almost 12:1 now.

River: (13.75 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, Hero calls, Button folds.

The pot's big, I can't fold for one bet.

Final Pot: 15.75 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 15.75 BB, between UTG+1 and Hero.</font>

Re: AQ flops middle pair.
 

I usually fold this PF to a raise, especially UTG. if you have a specific read that UTG and UTG+1 are incredibly loose, then you can play, in which case you should three bet as you did.

I call the flop, you also have a backdoor flush draw to the nuts which adds another 1.5 outs, approximately. but you should start to realize you're drawing at this point.

I call the turn as well.

I don't think I make the river crying call. UTG+1 has been the aggressor the whole way, and raised into the preflop 3 bettor, it sure looks like he can beat at least a Q. if I have top pair, I make the one bet crying call, but middle pair seems to be a safe fold.

Re: AQ flops middle pair.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't want to muck AQ and I think 3-betting makes it easier to play from the flop on.

... flop ... cold call

I think I may be ahead, and if not, I have 5 outs to two pair or better and I'm getting 8:1.

... turn ... call

Same thing, and I'm getting almost 12:1 now.

... river ... call

The pot's big, I can't fold for one bet.


[/ QUOTE ]

Look at this progression. By easier to play after the flop, do you mean easier to play passively? I don't like your line at all. I would have mucked because of the raise and the cold call (but I end up in slightly tighter games). I'll wait until I get a read before I play along here.

If you think you're ahead on the flop, raise it up! (I question this evaluation - you could easily be facing KJ from UTG+1) You've got position, and if it gets capped, you can re-evaluate on the turn.

But since you didn't 3-bet the flop, and it's the "same thing" on the turn, you should raise here. You want to get this heads up now to increase your equity. Your hand, if it happens to be best, is very vulnerable. You want to drive out those other players so that you have more 'safe' cards (there's less of a chance for someone to back into a second pair if there are fewer people in the pot).

And if you've gone this far, you've got to call the river and see UTG+1's KJo(?).

Re: AQ flops middle pair.
 

crap, after thinking about it more, folding the river after coming this far is crappy. but there's no way you're good here.

Re: AQ flops middle pair.
 

UTG+1 doesn't have KJ, any other guesses? I had an interesting discussion with my girlfried about what he had. She (admittedly a beginner) couldn't fit anything to his line. My belief that I was ahead on the flop was, in fact, correct.

Re: AQ flops middle pair.
 

JTs seems possible.

Re: AQ flops middle pair.
 

Fold preflop.

Flop is close. Your BD flush is good but your Q's could be tainted by KQ and your A's could be tainted by AK. You're getting 8:1 immediate odds but it may be 3-bet or capped after you act. I have no idea why you would ever think you're ahead here - except that UTG+1 rivered a straight with JT or two pair with Q9.

Re: AQ flops middle pair.
 

I'm taking you either won this hand or were ahead until the river. If you won, don't be results orientated.

Personally, I think you played this hand horribly.

Pre-Flop: I fold. You'll get arguements both ways but I've given up 3-betting AQo, especially when the raise is from UTG or UTG+1.

Flop: I fold, your trapped between the pre-flop raiser and now someone who called 2 cold pre-flop (KQs) and then raised the flop. How often do you think UTG will three bet with that board after he raised UTG. My guess very often. Not to mention you have no idea what BB is going to do. If you could close the action and call two cold, I might do it holding that As and the pot size but I'm not even sure about that.

Turn: Wow...you still have middle pair with no improvement against 2 raiser who are still in the pot.

River: Wow....you still have middle pair with no improvement and a str8 draw came home (unlikely though).

Change that Qh to 6c and your one card away from a calling station, of course they'll fold the river though.

Re: AQ flops middle pair.
 

On the flop, I think you should raise. You have your five outs, plus the backdoor nut flush for another 1.5 outs. Three betting here, will probably buy the button, maybe make UTG fold, and possibly gets you a free card. A side benefit is that if UTG or UTG1 cap you know you are probably way behind.

Re: AQ flops middle pair.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm taking you either won this hand or were ahead until the river. If you won, don't be results orientated.

Personally, I think you played this hand horribly.

Pre-Flop: I fold. You'll get arguements both ways but I've given up 3-betting AQo, especially when the raise is from UTG or UTG+1.

Flop: I fold, your trapped between the pre-flop raiser and now someone who called 2 cold pre-flop (KQs) and then raised the flop. How often do you think UTG will three bet with that board after he raised UTG. My guess very often. Not to mention you have no idea what BB is going to do. If you could close the action and call two cold, I might do it holding that As and the pot size but I'm not even sure about that.

Turn: Wow...you still have middle pair with no improvement against 2 raiser who are still in the pot.

River: Wow....you still have middle pair with no improvement and a str8 draw came home (unlikely though).

Change that Qh to 6c and your one card away from a calling station, of course they'll fold the river though.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going to agree with crockett here fold pre-flop. Since you didn't fold, even with your possible outs which are definitely not full outs I would fold the flop. I'm counting 4-5 outs on the flop the odds are almost there but you are not closing the action.

Re: AQ flops middle pair.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Change that Qh to 6c and your one card away from a calling station, of course they'll fold the river though

[/ QUOTE ]

crockett you could be a little easier on the guy, we're trying to help him not discourage him. middle pair is a tough hand to play, give him a break

Re: AQ flops middle pair.
 

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Change that Qh to 6c and your one card away from a calling station, of course they'll fold the river though

[/ QUOTE ]

crockett you could be a little easier on the guy, we're trying to help him not discourage him. middle pair is a tough hand to play, give him a break

[/ QUOTE ]

No, that's just what I needed. I've flopped back and forth between calling down too much and too little. This is the one area where I still have trouble with results oriented thinking. Months ago, soon after I started playing online, I folded trip queens when two players woke up and bet/raised in front of me when the 3rd flush card hit on the river. I would have won a 26BB pot. That one still haunts me a little.

After reading Ed Millers post about not folding top pair for one bet, I started calling down more, and was amazed at the pots I would win. I've let my call down standards slip a little to far. I thought that was true, but I won this particular hand. That's why I posted it, I thought in retrospect that the call-down was marginal, but I did win the pot. I find knowing when to call down and when not to much easier in live games than I do online.

Re: AQ flops middle pair.
 

You're an optimist. You can't regularly assume you're ahead on the flop when you have middle pair and there's already been a bet and a raise before you.

My read would have me behind on every street on this hand.

I fold this pre-flop unless I'm dealing with a maniac in which case I three bet.

I fold this flop. If you think you're ahead and decide to stay in you have to raise. Calling gives you no information and no chance of a free card on the turn. Raising will tell you if there's a good chance you're behind a K. It also may get all the others to fold getting you heads up with UTG+1 which increases your winning chances. You have a draw rich board that is highly likely to have hit everybody in some way. Make them pay three bets or get out.

Turn: again raise or fold. If you thought you were ahead on the flop why not raise here when a blank hits? I can possibly see waiting for the turn to raise but you go from thinking you're ahead to calling down? It doesn't make any sense. You're asking for someone to draw out on you without making them pay.

You line is frighteningly "calling station"-ish. Many of us depend on players calling down with middle pair for our rent money. don't be that guy! Next time you're on the flop and tempted to call down when you think you're ahead hit "raise" instead. It will tell you if you're likely ahead (or behind) and will possibly save you some BB's on the turn and river by buying free cards or causing others to fold when they would have sucked out on you.