WinHoldem cheaters foiled
 

Looks like the dimwits using WinHoldem are waking up to a bad day [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

WinHoldem Forum

As much as this vigilance/decisive action from PartyPoker heartens me it appears like we're in for a long and escalating battle between OPCs and the scum that market and use unethical AI systems.

I've seen posts here that seem to me to dismiss out of hand the AI as being littered with flawed probability calculations and devoid of any poker theory/psychology dimension of the game. However isn't it just a matter of time that these elements get improved by better algorithms that refine the odds calculations and integrate expected opponent behavior through hand histories in real-time?

Does this mean there will come a time when online poker for real money will just not be practical for anyone who's mind is unable to synthesize as quickly/accurately all the probabilities/psychology as a computer assisted player?

Also does it bother anyone that PP is doing screen shots of your display and examining them surreptitiously? I guess you should avoid having any confidential info on your screen while playing online. They should do a better job of warning people of this issue.

Re: WinHoldem cheaters foiled
 

I welcome the crack down on those cheaters.

I was surprised that Party can take screen shots however. I do not know enough of computers and internet, but if they are able to take screen shots and are able to write on your harddrive they could also be able to read your harddrive. I have all my passwords stored in a text file which probably isn't such a great idea anyway.

Re: WinHoldem cheaters foiled
 

it's probably in the user agreement that no one reads.

Re: WinHoldem cheaters foiled
 

[ QUOTE ]
I welcome the crack down on those cheaters.

I was surprised that Party can take screen shots however. I do not know enough of computers and Internet, but if they are able to take screen shots and are able to write on your hard drive they could also be able to read your hard drive. I have all my passwords stored in a text file which probably isn't such a great idea anyway.

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Any binary can read/write and take screen shots. They can do a lot more than that if they want. Sadly your passwords get cached a lot of the time. I keep no passwords on my computer but I would not be surprised if some of mine were cached in my computer some where. This has been a fact of like since the dawn of computers so its no big revelation. Your just need to be careful and know where all of your software came from.

~CT

Slightly off topic but I didnt want to start another thread
 

I have my username and password automatically configured when I open a poker client (eg party), which is the default. Is this a bad idea? Just wondering if I should turn this feature off and change my passwords.

EDIT: It totally rocks that Party is cracking down on these scumbags.

Re: Slightly off topic but I didnt want to start another thread
 

Let them screenshot my desktop. I have nothing to hide. Some of these girls have nothing to hide either!

Re: WinHoldem cheaters foiled
 

What exactly is WinHoldem used for?

Re: Slightly off topic but I didnt want to start another thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
Some of these girls have nothing to hide either!

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Hope they're not too easily offended - I'm sure they're going to see a lot of pink out there [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: WinHoldem cheaters foiled
 

It is a bot that you can program to play for you. Low bb/100, but you can play 20 tables at a time, all the time. Basically it's cheating.

Re: WinHoldem cheaters foiled
 

WinHoldem is basically a bot program that you can use to play for you. You input some data, and you can leave the computer and let it play. It sucks. It can't dynamically change to react to opponents strategies, and it doesn't know how to alter its own strategy under different conditions. It's what people with no poker skill use to try to come out on top.

Re: WinHoldem cheaters foiled
 

[ QUOTE ]
I was surprised that Party can take screen shots however. I do not know enough of computers and internet, but if they are able to take screen shots and are able to write on your harddrive they could also be able to read your harddrive.

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Any program installed on your computer can do these things.

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I have all my passwords stored in a text file which probably isn't such a great idea anyway.

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Yeah, this is a bad idea for a lot of reasons. Consider using a tool like Password Safe.

Re: WinHoldem cheaters foiled
 

Love to see more and more of this!

[img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

That's what you get for cheating, scumbag.

Re: WinHoldem cheaters foiled
 

I can't help it. I am responding to that guy. I'm boored! [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

EDIT:
I think I have been rejected since I put something like all you cheater suck on my signature. Dumb on my part. I am glad he lost his money -- more for the rest of us!

Which brings up the question....
 

I followed the link thru to the Party "agreement" that I never really read, but agreed to anyway. So, I read it:

<font color="red"> </font> 6. Artificial Intelligence.
We are committed to detecting and preventing software programs which are designed to enable artificial intelligence (non-human) to play on our site. Such programs are often designed to send information about cards or players to an external program. Information sent to an outside program is not permitted. The company will take measures to prevent and detect the use of such programs using methods including but not limited to screen scraping or reading the list of currently running programs on a player’s computer.


<font color="black"> </font> Since Pokertracker is an "outside" program and utilizes info from PokerParty (hand histories) and gives users an advantage over non-users, any concern over Pokertracker showing up on the verboten list? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: Which brings up the question....
 

I think it was already discussed. PokerTracker has no real time information - only hand history which is not part of PartyPoker after it's written/sent out.

Re: WinHoldem cheaters foiled
 

Why are all these cheaters getting warnings? They were caught running a bot, their bankroll should have been confiscated immediately. Apparently this did happen to some, but it appears most got warnings.

This screenshot idea was a great move by Party, but why warn them and let them go to the WinHoldem forums to warn others and devise workarounds?

Caught with WinHoldem = Bye Bye Bankroll. Am I missing something?

Re: WinHoldem cheaters foiled
 

[ QUOTE ]

from: Zabulus

I don't like the fact they are taking screenshots of private information...


[/ QUOTE ]

Wahh!

the above quote is from the WH link. I love that Zabulus is so indignant and feels violated when PP is not doing this to collect personal info but to try and prevent him from cheating. What a wanker.

Re: Which brings up the question....
 

Information isn't being sent to PT, though. Party is storing hand histories on your drive. PT is just helping you interpret them.

Re: WinHoldem cheaters foiled
 

But what no one here has mentioned so far is that the scariest part of WH is the cheat-card-sharing function; basically, if 2 players sit down at the same table both using WinHoldEm, the program will SHARE THE TWO PLAYERS' CARDS WITH EACH OTHER and play each hand accordingly.

Re: Which brings up the question....
 

Tks. I wasn't too concerned, as Poker Tracker has banners from Empire and Party on their site, but still, the thought crossed my mind.

Re: WinHoldem cheaters foiled
 

Your positive?

That's fcking unreal. So, if five guys on different comps own that piece of sht they could collude even more effectively?

I just read a couple of posts in the WH Forum. These guys show no sign of remorse or guilt. "Just don't get caught" is the standard answer there.

Re: WinHoldem cheaters foiled
 

I suggest all of us 2+2ers send a massive request to Party that all accounts that have been caught using WH should be closed down immediately.
It's nice that Party is trying to stop WH, but wtf - why are they only warning them?? People who make duplicate accounts are banned, but people running bots are only warned? What kind of sick system is that? [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

Re: WinHoldem cheaters foiled
 

Lovely, just another post proving how ignorant I am. I hand no idea "WH" existed.

I have a few thoughts. This stuff could seriously reck internet Poker. They are going to get better and better at what they do. From the little bit I read, it looks like this is definately in the development stage and it is highly unlikely large numbers are sucessfully using this at the levels "most" of us play 2/4+. On the other hand, they will only improve and of course it is only a matter of time before 1+1=2 (no pun intended) and two sucessfull coders get together, network their machines and now can easily collute with one another. Now your playing TWO bots working TOGETHER.

Everyone is jumping up and down patting each other on the back saying "yeah...Party cracked them...blah..blah" but if you visit the WH website it appears that the ones with half a brain were one step ahead of Party and use a version or seperate software "winPP" to make WH appear invisible. At least this is what I gather from the little I read. So in a couple of days/weeks after everyone gets with the program they will be right back in business.

O.K. everything I just said above seems very "doomsday" but the one thing that always brings me peace of mind is that WH is clearly some form of a scam. In my life experience scams NEVER work. Yes some are sucessfull for a time period but it seems like in the end better judgement always wins out and a scam is eventually shut down, defeated, rendered useless, etc.

Finally, the one thing that does bother me is what effects me directly and that is the use of PokerTracker. I'm completely aware that we are talking about to different "types" of edges but let's face it, PokerTracker is being used more and more as a "realtime" data collector to give a player an edge. For the sake of the discussion I'm aware that PT isn't officially realtime but the lag is minor when using it with automatic hand updates.

To me the ethics seems clear. PT is fine, WH is not. But I can understand an arguement coming from the casual player who says "I play Poker for entertainment, just like at the Casino, I don't expect to be up against a robot BUT I also don't expect to be up against some guy using a computer to track every single move I make and have that data fed back to him while he's playing."

Even though I use PT I sympathize with this arguement and sometimes think "why can't HE (Internet or live) just be a gambling game of thinking person vs. other thinking persons and the only advangtage one would have is their own personal wits.

If this robot movement continues and big Poker sites become more and more aggressive to curtail "advantages" it could place a data mining software in jeopardy as well.

In fact, I'll bet every last dollar I have, that this is being and has been discussed among the people who make decisions at a large site such as Party.

Re: WinHoldem cheaters foiled
 

If two losing bots collude do they suddenly become winning bots? If you look through their forums most of the players are still losing money with their bots.

Re: WinHoldem cheaters foiled
 

[ QUOTE ]
It is a bot that you can program to play for you. Low bb/100, but you can play 20 tables at a time, all the time. Basically it's cheating.

[/ QUOTE ]

do we know if winholdem actually wins?

Re: WinHoldem cheaters foiled
 

[ QUOTE ]
it could place data mining software in jeopardy as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Party was so concerned about data mining that they recently added the feature that writes hand history to disk as you play (or observe). Basically, they added a feature to help data miners. I severely doubt pokertracker is a concern of theirs.

Re: WinHoldem cheaters foiled
 

I covered this in my post. To assume human minds won't improve a product is foolish. They will continue to get better. Chess computers can now beat anyone in the world with the exception of a handful of people.

I don't know if this is possible in Poker but I lean towards believing it is and betting that they can at least make it very very hard on the "above average player".

My post was more concerned about the future not the present.

another scumbag loses their $$
 

Serves you right, scumbag.

I hope party figures out how to find these cheats even if they are using the winpp antidetection method - then the emails say "you've been warned, bye bye bankroll."

Re: WinHoldem cheaters foiled
 

I must have worded it poorly. My apologizes. I didn't mean to imply that PT was a concern of theirs at this moment. Party will do ONLY what the money dictates. My concern was wether or not Party (or other sites for that matter) will face pressure from the "masses" to take away any and all advantages. The money will define the word "advantages."

The next time you walk into a Casino just stop for one second and turn around in a full circle. Rememeber your in the minority, that sea of people would definately be offended if they knew they were competing in a game and you were using a computer to mine data of their actions. Some would be so offended that they wouldn't want to go to that Casino anymore. So, what would the Casino do? Yup, make it really hard on you and invite the masses back to their new and improved Casino. The masses has more money than you and the Casino will follow the money.

Anyways, like I said this all sounds doomsday, but I'm also a realist, I'm sure PT is here to stay for at least awhile but I do believe if this "botting" becomes prevelant that it can definately effect my lifestyle and many others who spend time reading these forums.

Re: WinHoldem cheaters foiled
 

[ QUOTE ]
I covered this in my post. To assume human minds won't improve a product is foolish. They will continue to get better. Chess computers can now beat anyone in the world with the exception of a handful of people.

I don't know if this is possible in Poker but I lean towards believing it is and betting that they can at least make it very very hard on the "above average player".

My post was more concerned about the future not the present.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, someone can build a better mousetrap, but this WinHoldem moron is not going to be the one to do it.

The general consensus is that his bot software has a deeply flawed design, and to the point where it is not possible to program it to play well. It's like teaching a blind man to paint.

Re: another scumbag loses their $$
 

Support's question to this guy was

"how much did they steal?"

Now that's funny

TheRake

Re: WinHoldem cheaters foiled
 

[ QUOTE ]
I covered this in my post. To assume human minds won't improve a product is foolish. They will continue to get better. Chess computers can now beat anyone in the world with the exception of a handful of people.

[/ QUOTE ]

Chess is a game of complete information. Poker is not.

Re: WinHoldem cheaters foiled
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
it could place data mining software in jeopardy as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Party was so concerned about data mining that they recently added the feature that writes hand history to disk as you play (or observe). Basically, they added a feature to help data miners. I severely doubt pokertracker is a concern of theirs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Poker Tracker Pat emailed and talked to Party about getting the hand histories from the .hhf files and they said they did not have a problem with it. He works very closely with Party and he would never include anything in the program that would cause us to get in trouble. I am just a user of Poker Tracker by the way.

Re: WinHoldem cheaters foiled
 

[ QUOTE ]
My concern was wether or not Party (or other sites for that matter) will face pressure from the "masses" to take away any and all advantages.

[/ QUOTE ]
I understand your concern, but I think you are worrying about nothing. I study public opinion, and the "masses" generally don't take time to inform themselves about such things. Most casual players (fish) who play for a fun time becuase it looks cool on TV don't know Pokertracker even exists, and if they did, would not really care too much. If there were a popular outcry, them Party et al might try to do something about it. However, there will be no popular outcry about Pokertracker.

Re: WinHoldem cheaters foiled
 

If people are concerned about data miners, they can just change their screen name.

Re: WinHoldem cheaters foiled
 

ok.....So.....

Your totally missing my point. Frankly, I don't care who develops it, it is totally irrevelant who it is. My point is that there are obviously a lot of people thinking about it and trust me someone has a very good shot at perfecting it. I don't care if their name is Frank or Bob. If there is money to be made someone will pick up the ball.

I'm probably sounding like some paranoid freak. Really, I'm not. I dont' have visions of waking up tomorrow in a world without PT or where interent Poker is ruined because of bots. I just thought it was an interesting subject and I try envision(sp?) were this thing is headed.

I've been very interested in the whole "Poker explosion". I still stand on my theory that it will die off fairly soon for various reasons. Of course, I'm hoping it doesn't because it's earning me extra money but I'm trying to be a realist.

Re: WinHoldem cheaters foiled
 

Bots are going to make strides, sure. I'm satisfied though that Party and other large sites are going to do whatever they have to to squash bots. A casino has nothing if people believe their games are rigged or they permit cheating. Party has an overwhelming financial interest, and they are worth a lot of money. They're not going to let some bored comp sci student ruin their empire without breaking his program or breaking his legs.

Re: WinHoldem cheaters foiled
 

Booyah!
I knew they'd be catching these guys!!

As long as these sites want money, they will want to ban cheaters to make it more inviting for new clients.

Just like live casinos use the latest technology to catch live cheaters. It's part of their budget.

Re: WinHoldem cheaters foiled
 

I think this is only stage 1. Obviously, those cheatings b***ards are still doing their thing. On the other hand, I'm sure PP has some guy checking out their forums and planning counter-measures as we speak.
Who knows, maybe a lawsuit is coming up?

Btw, party felt a lot looser today. Coincidence?

And this guy paid $100 for this.
 

Sucker.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:</font><hr />
I have left the bot on for approximately 11 hours a day, while i am sleeping. I have lost approximately 20$ total.

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