Is this one of those times I should check behind on the turn?
 

Party Poker 2/4, but it doesn't really matter. 10 handed.

First orbit. I have AA in MP. I open raise and only the BB calls.

Flop TT2r.

He checks, I bet, he calls.

Turn: 5, offsuit

He checks.

What if there was a flush draw on the flop, or the 5 on the turn brought a twoflush?

I understand that you should check here because you're either way ahead or way behind, and you can't fold to a check-raise and you might induce a bluff on the river and he doesn't fold a worse hand (obviously). The thing is, they call with so many bad hands, he may well call the turn with just overcards, so perhaps it's a bet anyway.

Re: Is this one of those times I should check behind on the turn?
 

I'd bet. He could easily have a hand like 88 and have you on overcards.

Re: Is this one of those times I should check behind on the turn?
 

Against a good player, I think I check here; against a bad player, I bet. At 2/4, given the weighted distribution of good players to bad players, I probably go ahead and bet.

Rob

Re: Is this one of those times I should check behind on the turn?
 

Why wouldn't you bet this turn?

If this is a question in relation to it, I would consider this to be very different than that KQ hand elsewhere... most notably you are the aggressor. The likelihood of your opponent having a better hand is significantly decreased. He hasn't shown you anything, if he is on or pick up a flush draw it's a small enough pot he doesn't have proper odds to be calling just based on that, and further, unless he has the unlikely holdings of a T or a suited hand that hit on the turn you're ahead.

A turn check behind doesn't mean that you'll induce a river bluff, villain has shown no inclination to bet thus far.

I think you re-evaluate in the event of a check raise, but your read on the opponent, the suits of your aces, the suits of the table etc. etc. etc.

This is such a hypothetical I'm not sure I even see your point, to be honest... but aside from a very specific read of someone who will bluff on the river with crap, and call a raise on the few times your hand improves or another blank falls... but will always fold on the turn to a bet here... I return to my first question, why wouldn't you bet here?

Re: Is this one of those times I should check behind on the turn?
 

against a good (presumably TAG) player... what is the plan on the river?

specifically, let's say another blank, and he bets...

Re: Is this one of those times I should check behind on the turn?
 

[ QUOTE ]
against a good (presumably TAG) player... what is the plan on the river?

specifically, let's say another blank, and he bets...

[/ QUOTE ]
I call. A raise isn't going to be called by worse hands 66% of the time against a good player, and the turn check may have induced him to bluff with a hand like AJs, KQs, etc.

Rob

Re: Is this one of those times I should check behind on the turn?
 

[ QUOTE ]
against a good (presumably TAG) player... what is the plan on the river?

specifically, let's say another blank, and he bets...

[/ QUOTE ]

You call. The whole point of this line is that a thinking player who won't call a bet on the turn when he is behind may now bet the river (or call your river bet if he checks and you bet).

Now, I don't really like this line at Party $2/4 but that's another matter.

Re: Is this one of those times I should check behind on the turn?
 

thanks guys... definitely something to keep in mind, particularly as i spend more time at 3/6...

Re: Is this one of those times I should check behind on the turn?
 

I don't have my copy here at work but I think this line is discussed in HPFAP. Against thinking players this is a good line. Against typical Party $2/4 players I don't like it at all as you will get called here by all sorts of crap hands that you are crushing.

Re: Is this one of those times I should check behind on the turn?
 

Way behind to one of two cards in the deck, and you are heads up. What are the odds of you being behind, and you being ahead? He called your raise preflop, he called you on the flop, what tells you he isn't going to keep calling?

Re: Is this one of those times I should check behind on the turn?
 

I would strongly consider raising a river bet if a K-J comes off, otherwise I agree that calling is better.

Brad

Re: Is this one of those times I should check behind on the turn?
 

I had a similar situation the other day at PS $3-6...with the flush draw.

AA one from the cutoff. Open raise only BB calls.

Flop: J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
BB bets, raise, call.

Turn: 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
BB checks, bet, BB raises, call.

River: K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
BB bets, raise, BB calls.

BB mucked and hand history showed 99. I wondered if my play was good or not as I watched the chips stack...

Re: Is this one of those times I should check behind on the turn?
 

i think the argument against betting against a good player is... what is he calling that flop with? it's pretty devoid of draws...

Re: Is this one of those times I should check behind on the turn?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't have my copy here at work but I think this line is discussed in HPFAP. Against thinking players this is a good line. Against typical Party $2/4 players I don't like it at all as you will get called here by all sorts of crap hands that you are crushing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well put.

Re: Is this one of those times I should check behind on the turn?
 

Against an unknown Party 2/4 player you have to bet the turn because he'll call with all sorts of junk.

Against a good player you should probably still bet because he will call you down with a pocket pair, which is a prime calling hand preflop in the BB heads up against the PFR. Pocket pairs are a lot of hands and you probably lose a bet by not going after him when he has one.

Trips is not such a likely hand because he needs his kicker to relate to his ten in some way that justifies the preflop call. Probably that means suited and of reasonable size. The other issue about trips or a boat is he cannot expect you to bet the turn with overcards and you probably won't call the checkraise either. That makes a turn checkraise a problematic line of play for him to adopt. He'll only try it a fraction of the times he has a monster.