Stop-N-Go with the Nuts
 

Been trying to incorporate this more into my game, how's it look in this hand.

i thought reraising the flop big would let him get away from too many hands.

Prima $2.5-5.00 blinds $500 max buy in

i (1100) complete after two limpers with K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

flop ($20): A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]10 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

i bet $20, UTG +1 limper calls, LP( $480 no real read) makes it $75, i call, limper folds

turn $190:2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

i lead out for $140

comments?

fsuplayer

Re: Stop-N-Go with the Nuts
 

[ QUOTE ]
Prima $2.5-5.00 blinds $500 max buy in

i (1100) complete after two limpers with K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

flop ($20): A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]10 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

i bet $20, UTG +1 limper calls, LP( $480 no real read) makes it $75, i call, limper folds

[/ QUOTE ]

not really a comment but a question: what do you do if a club comes on the turn?

as far as the flop goes, i'd probably reraise fearing the flush draw. but, i think i have a tendency to play my good hands too aggressively, and thus i win smaller pots. i would like to hear comments about playing the turn when a club hits, because if i were in your position doing the stop-and-go and a club hit the turn, i'd be crying like a little girl (but that's just me [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] ).

Re: Stop-N-Go with the Nuts
 

[ QUOTE ]


i thought reraising the flop big would let him get away from too many hands.


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im not sure i like using a stop and go here.

if hes good: hey may get away from a good hand with your reraise, but he will also be able to see how strong your stop and go is. so vs this player, i like reraise better because of the times the club hits the turn

if he isnt good: he wont fold to your reraise enough or your stop and go. he cant get away from his 2 pair on the flop if you reraise the flop, and he doesnt understand the strength of the stop and go move. so vs this player i think reraising is also better, as its so much easier to get all in if you reraise the flop rather than bet the turn.

thoughts?

Re: Stop-N-Go with the Nuts
 

I would've wanted more money in on the flop. Why do you think he raised? Sure, he could have a vulnerable hand and wants to gain information by raising you and he may fold, but he may also have a strong hand or big draw that he would be willing to get in more chips with on the flop.

I'd try building a pot early with this hand forcing him to come along if he did have a nice draw. With the stacks where they are, you'd have a better chance of getting all-in if you reraised on the flop and pushed on the turn.

I'm just a fan of building the pot when I know I'm ahead. If the board pairs or a club shows on the turn, would you change your line?

BTW, I'm generally not a fan of the stop-n-go except for use in tournaments when I have a semi-strong hand in the blinds and am willing to go all-in preflop, but want folding equity by letting the opponent miss the flop if they have a low pair or AK.

Is the basis for the stop-n-go in this situation to lead your opponent to believe that your block-betting?

Re: Stop-N-Go with the Nuts
 

What do you think he raised with? Either he's drawing or he's got something pretty big, perhaps Q10 or A10 seems reasonable here.

A few problems with the stop and go technique here:

1) It's a risk. There are a lot of scare cards out there. About 17 of them (any club, an ace, a queen or a ten). That would scare me. I'd probably reraise his bet here, but I can definitely see not reraising.

But once you don't reraise...

2) You don't really have much information on his hand, while your stop n' go bet method does give information about your hand. Probably the least scary card in the deck came out. No way he's going to think you hit something by that 2 coming out. So he's got to assume A-x is no good, and two pair is no good.

If you continue slow playing here and check the turn, I'd think he's going to bet a good hand, probably pretty hard putting you on a very live draw. Then you can reraise and take down a nice pot.

If he's got a draw, he'll probably check the turn and then you've got a decision to make on the river on whether to bet or check again. If a scare card comes up, I'd probably check/call.

Re: Stop-N-Go with the Nuts
 

fsu,

I think the main thing is, you need to get more money in on the flop.....the whole point of leading out with the nuts on the flop is so exactly what happened happens - you get raised......you're out of position, he's got a hand, reraise the flop (I'm not saying blow him off the hand) and lead out the turn......

Re: Stop-N-Go with the Nuts
 

Simple question...what hands do you expect to call your turn bet that would have folded to a raise on the flop?

Re: Stop-N-Go with the Nuts
 

I think its the wrong time for Stop-N-Go, especially since he limped (making a very strong hand/big draw more likely).

I think the play here is check-raise, hope he's got one of those hands (two-pair, set, or pair+draw) and pushes. If you bet, get raised, and push, he can get away from a set or two pair, and there are tons of bad turn cards that kill your action and/or beat you. A check-raise looks like bottom two, or even just top pair, so there's a good chance he'll come back over the top of you with a strong hand. If he's not that strong, you're probably not winning a big pot anyway, so might as well get as much in/take it down before everything goes to [censored].

Re: Stop-N-Go with the Nuts
 

It depends on the player obviously, but i would guess his intention on the turn was to get in a lead/reraise, not get called by a hand that wouldn't have called a flop reraise.

Re: Stop-N-Go with the Nuts
 

I think it's valuable to think about what that turn bet is trying to accomplish (e.g. what types of hands is it targeting?) and then figure out if that thinking is consistent with the decision to not reraise the flop.

My position is they're completely inconsistent, but I'd like to know what fsuplayer was thinking at the time.

Re: Stop-N-Go with the Nuts
 

Question, would you ever play a flush draw this way? If not I don't like your line. It's unlikely he's going to check the turn, so you gain nothing by leading out, if fact you might get him to fold a hand that he would’ve gone all the way with.

Re: Stop-N-Go with the Nuts
 

My guess would be that he's trying to get the semi-short stacked player to push with 2 pair. I think the flop call and the turn underbet accompish this better than a flop lead reraise.

*RESULTS*
 

thanks for the responses.

after two full roundsd the guy hadnt played a hand or raised pf ; he seemed tighter and unremarkable.

so when he raised on the flop, I didnt put him on any kind of draw unless it was something nasty.

I was thinking that if I raised the pot, he might fold a lower two pair or AJ type hand.

after looking back, I dont really like the play, as a lot of cards can kill my action/beat me. So I need to get in more money while I am def. ahead.

despite my ugly play, it ended well that time.

he called, and then called my all in on a blank river with top two pair.

the result just shows again why I should reraise this out of position, as a club or non Q broadway would have killed my action.

thanks for the responses guys,

fsuplayer

Re: Stop-N-Go with the Nuts
 

[ QUOTE ]
My guess would be that he's trying to get the semi-short stacked player to push with 2 pair. I think the flop call and the turn underbet accompish this better than a flop lead reraise.

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nah, this happens very rarely in a real game.

When to Stop And Go?
 

After thinking about this hand and reading the responses I wonder what would be the point of the stop-and-go play at all? Are there some general rules that outline when you should think about using the play?

The only reason I can really think of is to make sure a flush card doesn't come on the turn. This reduces the odds of loosing the hand if re-raised all-in on the flop. If you use this play and a flush card comes on the turn you can still let the hand go whereas a blank allows you to use the stop-and-go play.

There is the obvious risk the board pairing up on the turn if you just call, but maybe that is acceptable over re-raising the flop and having some sort of flush+ draw which could have around 50% chance to win the hand re-raise you all-in and draw both cards.

Re: Stop-N-Go with the Nuts
 

I love the stop and go move semi-short stacked in a tourney, and in certain situations in a ring game, but I dont see the benefit here? I would appreciate any feed back.

Here is my view.

On the flop, what hands will LP player raise with?
2 pair, AK, AJ - yes, will want to find out if he is drawing against a straight
KcQc, QcJc,Kxc - yes, great spot to try to buy a free card for the draw

KJo - trying to chase off flush draw

Now the problem is you dont know what you are up against. I think you can rule out KcJc, as a smart player would call with that hand.

So you have a pot of 135$ with 55$ to call. If you try the stop and go, I assume you are trying to limit your losses if the flush hits or the board pairs.

So if any of 15 cards hit, you wont bet into the turn, and an observant player will steal the hand. If a blank hits, a good player will give up his draw to a decent bet.

So EV = (15/45) * -55 + (30/45) * 135 = $ 20 (apx)
- I realize I ignored a split and other details

Now, if you reraise preflop, lets say that he will only call with a nut flush draw or QJc, You will be a favorite

So if you push, even if you are certain (ignoring folding equity) that he holds KcQc, and will call, you get an EV of

.577 * 995$ = 574$ - 460 (bet) = 115$

Include the large folding equity on the 190$ pot, I think reraising has to be the play here.

The main reasons I avoid this play are:
-Your opponent is unlikely to put you on a draw calling large raises out of position (why this is considered a stop and go instead of a slow play, I will never know)

-a blank on 4th street will be enough to close the betting on most drawing hands, why not get the money in when you think they will call. Sure, you will see more variance, but its all about the long run....right?

Re: Stop-N-Go with the Nuts
 

Also, would appreciate if someone could point to to a post that better describes the benefits of the 'stop and go'. I only know for the situation, where you do not want a call and if the next card misses, you that your oponent will fold, whereas they would have called with 2 to come (or pre-flop).

Also, can someone explain "block-betting"?

Re: Stop-N-Go with the Nuts
 

I only like it if you type in "That's my money card!"