Moral Dillema on PartyPoker
 

A few months ago, I was playing in a $100 buy-in NL cash game on party and one guy in the room was just moving in preflop literally 80% of the time and rebought for the full $100 about 10 times in the course of 20 minutes.

He claimed to be under the influence of heavy anti-depressants because of the stress he was under due to the death of his wife's newborn infant. I believed the authenticity of his situation because he was able to quickly give the names of the drugs he was taking, as well as refer us to a website with the heartbreaking account of his wife's pregnancy and the tragic death of the fetus.

Some people in the game obviously felt guilty and tried convincing him to stop throwing his money away. I attempted to do this too, but he claimed that gambling on poker was theraputic for him and that the money he was dumping at the table was an amount he could afford to lose.

So I figured if he wants to give away his money, I might as well get the rest of it in a 15/30 heads up match. Our 'competition' lasted about 50 hands before I cleared him out of his $1700. The maniac would cap every street with little to nothing and then when he finally busted, he begged me to transfer him some more money, because his weekly deposity limit was up.

As I took a taxi back to my hotel after my session, I felt a little guilty about taking his money. It felt too easy. If he would have played halfway decently, or at least put up some sort of fight, I would have felt like I earned it. Instead, I felt more like I robbed the guy.

Would you take this guys money after finding out what I've shared with you? At what point would you stop taking his money if party didnt put a cap on the amount he could transfer from his bank account.

Re: Moral Dillema on PartyPoker
 

[ QUOTE ]
A few months ago, I was playing in a $100 buy-in NL cash game on party and one guy in the room was just moving in preflop literally 80% of the time and rebought for the full $100 about 10 times in the course of 20 minutes.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
So I figured if he wants to give away his money, I might as well get the rest of it in a 15/30 heads up match. Our 'competition' lasted about 50 hands before I cleared him out of his $1700.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
As I took a taxi back to my hotel after my session, I felt a little guilty about taking his money.

[/ QUOTE ]

And to think that before I read the last part I had almost believed this story.

Re: Moral Dillema on PartyPoker
 

I was returning from a friend's house in N.Y. to the hotel where my family was staying.

Completely true story btw.

Re: Moral Dillema on PartyPoker
 

anyone stupid enough to do this deserves the wake-up call of getting busted

Re: Moral Dillema on PartyPoker
 

Assuming this story is true, I think it was pretty low of you to challenge him to a HU match. If he is truly in crisis, and wants to play to drown his sorrows, I don't see anything wrong with gambling it up with him at a full table, where he is fair game for anyone, and where he can at least try to have his escapism and possibly not lose too much too quickly. But to drag him aside specifically for the purpose of raping him sounds pretty disgusting to me.

Remember...what goes around in this world comes around.

Re: Moral Dillema on PartyPoker
 

Amen

Re: Moral Dillema on PartyPoker
 

[ QUOTE ]
anyone stupid enough to do this deserves the wake-up call of getting busted

[/ QUOTE ]

Stupid people deserve trouble? You would think that they have a hard enough time anyway...

Re: Moral Dillema on PartyPoker
 

What he said.

Anyone who would stoop to take FURTHER advantage of a situation like that is a scumbag. Plain and simple.

[img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img] busguy

Re: Moral Dillema on PartyPoker
 

[ QUOTE ]


So I figured if he wants to give away his money, I might as well get the rest of it in a 15/30 heads up match.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was my favorite part. If this guy needs help . . let me REALLY help him. Way too be a good person and look out for the weak.

[ QUOTE ]
I felt more like I robbed the guy

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah . . . that is because you DID rob him.

You sir . . . are a clown and I hope as chesspain says above, that what goes around . . comes around, turns out to be true for you.

Re: Moral Dillema on PartyPoker
 

[ QUOTE ]
due to the death of his wife's newborn infant.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
heartbreaking account of his wife's pregnancy and the tragic death of the fetus.

[/ QUOTE ]

first of all, a newborn infant is NOT a fetus, he/she is a human being.

secondly, maybe to clear your conscience (what you did was not honorable), you could donate $1700.00 to a charity that helps families going through the death of a child, or one whose purpose is to reduce infant mortality. Ronald McDonald House? any other suggestions posters?

cheers!

Re: Moral Dillema on PartyPoker
 

I, for one, never believe anything someone says at the poker table. Now I wouldn't have taken this guy to a HU table, but that's because I believe it's more beneficial to my long-term win rate to let someone lose gradually.

What does surprise me is how many folks here are taking the tilter's story as the truth.

Re: Moral Dillema on PartyPoker
 

[ QUOTE ]
I, for one, never believe anything someone says at the poker table. Now I wouldn't have taken this guy to a HU table, but that's because I believe it's more beneficial to my long-term win rate to let someone lose gradually.

What does surprise me is how many folks here are taking the tilter's story as the truth.

[/ QUOTE ]

the poster said he believd the story to be true. all responses, therefore, should consider it to be fact for the purposes of discussion.

cheers!

Re: Moral Dillema on PartyPoker
 

Assuming this story is true, which is a longshot, I would say take the money and run. Poker, and especially online poker, is about taking advantage of weak players and people making mistakes. This is no different... Just because he has had a tragedy in is life doesn't mean you shouldn't play with him. If your morals are so high that you can't take money from someone who is playing poorly then you should choose another game.

Re: Moral Dillema on PartyPoker
 

Assuming the story was true: He let you understand that he was in a terrible crisis and had no business in a poker room. Knowing that, you took him aside and raped him. Where´s the dilemma part of the story?

/twang

Re: Moral Dillema on PartyPoker
 

Don't you think there is a HUGE difference between not getting up from a full table (ie. keep playing) and OFFERING to play the guy H/U to take advantage of his "possible" mental situation.

I for one think there is a MASSIVE difference. I probably wouldn't get up from a full table and stop playing but I would NEVER pray (whether or not the thought crossed my mind) on someone like that.

my 2 cents.

[img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] busguy

Re: Moral Dillema on PartyPoker
 

There's no "dilema" or anything here. The guy is playing bad, and your job is take as much of his money as you possibly can. Just business, nothing personal. It doesn't matter what his background story is or whether it's true or not. All that matters is that you got the job done.

I'm surprised so many of the poker players here are so soft regarding things like this. What ever happened to that old addage, "I'd bust my grandmother if she played a pot with me".

If presented with the opportunity to take a tilters money, I suggest you take it, because I assure you, if you ever get screwed up in the head and start going off for lots of money, there are plenty of people out there that wouldn't think twice about taking it from you.

Re: Moral Dillema on PartyPoker
 

Yes! This is a critical point.
/M

Re: Moral Dillema on PartyPoker
 

" Now I wouldn't have taken this guy to a HU table, but that's because I believe it's more beneficial to my long-term win rate to let someone lose gradually."

This is a serious error in judgment. While it is true that is better for the poker community in general if people lose slowly and come back for more rather than have a single traumatic experience, you are passing up too much in this spot. Party Poker has over 50,000 players at a time. The chance that you will ever see this player again is small. You have a chance right now to guarantee yourself $1700 (or whatever it is). This is something like 50 hours of expectation. There is no way I can fathom that passing on playing this player will net you more than that. In fact, it will not even come close. Maybe in a cardroom with 3 tables, where he could come back every week and lose to you, but will avoid you if you beat him too badly, this is the best strategy. On Party Poker, there is only one EV choice, and that is play until your eyes bleed.

Re: Moral Dillema on PartyPoker
 

Pity not the fallen. Ye, I am not for them, I never knew them. Strike low and hard and to hell with them. Conquer.

Re: Moral Dillema on PartyPoker
 

[ QUOTE ]
...I suggest you take it, because I assure you, if you ever get screwed up in the head and start going off for lots of money, there are plenty of people out there that wouldn't think twice about taking it from you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see the logic...

Just because there are lots of people out there who would steal your car if don't lock it doesn't mean that you should run around stealing cars.

Re: Moral Dillema on PartyPoker
 

I would have done the same thing. I'm not going to defend my point-of-view, but give me a break, this guy is just some random awful player and you guys don't want to take his money.

-Michael

More thoughts and another question
 

First of all, I'd like to thank everyone for their responses so far, including the really harsh ones. As I already said, before and after I took this guys money, I felt really conflicted about my choice (which shows I'm not a completely heartless a**hole, right?) and that’s why I posted here.

After thinking this through, I can't get away from the fact that tons of my profits in poker have come from compulsive gamblers and other people who gambled with money they couldn't afford to lose. It is a sad fact that poker players are predatory in nature (who doesn't change tables because a known donator has shown up, or offers a heads up challenge to weak player in a full ring game) and we generally don't consider it our duty to make sure the donators will not be hurt by taking their money.

What made me decide to go ahead with the heads up match was his insistence that the money he was playing with was hardly a drop in the bucket compared with his executive salary. Had this not been the case, I would not have played him heads up and would have persisted in my efforts to stop him in the full NL game.

So, considering it was money that he could afford to lose, why wasn't my proposition akin to a pro in Vegas challenging Rene (Celine Dion's husband - a billionaire with a gambling problem) to a heads up match? What is it about the grief that my opponent feels, as opposed to the many other things that put opponents on tilt, that makes him off limits here?

Re: Moral Dillema on PartyPoker
 

[ QUOTE ]
Just because there are lots of people out there who would steal your car if don't lock it doesn't mean that you should run around stealing cars.

[/ QUOTE ]

That´s pretty much my opinion too.

All this law-of-the-jungle-macho-BS (Feed of the weak!! It was me or him!!!) is pretty silly, I think. Situations like these are such a rare beast that I can´t see why normal decency wouldn´t fit - Party Poker is full of "normal" fish that you can feed of so it´s not like you are giving up much EV in return for sleeping well at night.

We don´t go around stealing candy from kids just because we are stronger. We don´t stick our dicks in women just because they pass out on the floor after one beer too many. We don´t try to fill our home games with mentally challenged people. Well, some of us does, but that is not the norm.

There are plenty of "opportunities" that we pass on, so why should this be any different, if you truely belive the guy?

(That said, I think he was full of it.)

Re: Moral Dillema on PartyPoker
 

That said, I think he was full of it.

If you are talking about the guy I played heads up, he referred me to a website where his wife had written a lengthy account of her pregnancy and subsequent tragedy.

In my mind, it was like 100-1 that his story was legit.

Re: Moral Dillema on PartyPoker
 

I could refer you to a site about a dog that died in a car accident. Would you belive me if I told you my dog was hit by a truck?

But yeah, it could very well be legit. It is (like they say around here) situation dependant.

/twang

Re: Moral Dillema on PartyPoker
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just because there are lots of people out there who would steal your car if don't lock it doesn't mean that you should run around stealing cars.

[/ QUOTE ]

That´s pretty much my opinion too.

All this law-of-the-jungle-macho-BS (Feed of the weak!! It was me or him!!!) is pretty silly, I think. Situations like these are such a rare beast that I can´t see why normal decency wouldn´t fit - Party Poker is full of "normal" fish that you can feed of so it´s not like you are giving up much EV in return for sleeping well at night.

We don´t go around stealing candy from kids just because we are stronger. We don´t stick our dicks in women just because they pass out on the floor after one beer too many. We don´t try to fill our home games with mentally challenged people. Well, some of us does, but that is not the norm.

There are plenty of "opportunities" that we pass on, so why should this be any different, if you truely belive the guy?

(That said, I think he was full of it.)

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't some ethics class, and it doesn't concern your personal relationships. It's business, pure and simple. If you think I'm going to give some guy I don't even know $1700 because he has some sob story, you're f'n nuts.


I hope the original poster put this guy on his buddy list so he can track him down next week after he can deposit again.

BTW, you have some serious misconceptions about poker if you think the law of the jungle doesn't apply.

Re: Moral Dillema on PartyPoker
 

And I could give you links to a handful of sites of journals of people who have cancer and eventually died or people who committed suicide, only to later reveal that it was a sham.

In fact, far more often than not, this kind of story is a lie. Usually something that starts out as a way to get attention that ends with "tragedy" when it either gets old or spirals way out of control and people do research and find the holes.

It's far more likely that this guy found that webpage/site and read it and is using it as cover than it is that the ludicrous series of events "Infant dies, wife and husband are depressed, husband is prescribed medication, husband decides to piss away thousands while telling everyone he's depressed and giving out all kinds of technical info and backstory on his family"

I'm not entirely sure what the real story is, or even the point. I'd bet that a stolen credit card is in there somewhere. Why would he ask you for a $$ transfer after you cleaned him out of $1700? Is that just an attempt at money laundering for retards (not that you're involved, but that he's trying to chip dump and then cover his tracks or something).

Re: Moral Dillema on PartyPoker
 

[ QUOTE ]
This isn't some ethics class,

[/ QUOTE ]
Sure it is. The original poster asked for opinions about his moral action.

[ QUOTE ]
and it doesn't concern your personal relationships. It's business, pure and simple.

[/ QUOTE ]
So is selling crack to kids.

[ QUOTE ]
BTW, you have some serious misconceptions about poker if you think the law of the jungle doesn't apply.

[/ QUOTE ]
I never said it didn´t. Obviously law of the jungle-mechanics applies to life in general, not only poker. That doesn´t change the fact that vulgar application of power is silly and childish at it´s best, immoral or criminal at it´s worst.

/twang

Re: Moral Dillema on PartyPoker
 

[ QUOTE ]
Assuming this story is true, I think it was pretty low of you to challenge him to a HU match. If he is truly in crisis, and wants to play to drown his sorrows, I don't see anything wrong with gambling it up with him at a full table, where he is fair game for anyone, and where he can at least try to have his escapism and possibly not lose too much too quickly. But to drag him aside specifically for the purpose of raping him sounds pretty disgusting to me.

Remember...what goes around in this world comes around.

[/ QUOTE ]

First off Enon did not "drag" him aside. This particular man consciously knew what he was doing. It was his choice to play HU. It was his choice to go all-in a bazillion times. No one forced him to play, and quite the contrary told him to get off the table. He insisted on staying and playing.

However, I believe Enon should have given back a bit to the man. Yes, what goes around comes around.

People have different ways of escaping reality and the cold truth that reality brings.

Re: More thoughts and another question
 

[ QUOTE ]
After thinking this through, I can't get away from the fact that tons of my profits in poker have come from compulsive gamblers and other people who gambled with money they couldn't afford to lose. It is a sad fact that poker players are predatory in nature (who doesn't change tables because a known donator has shown up, or offers a heads up challenge to weak player in a full ring game) and we generally don't consider it our duty to make sure the donators will not be hurt by taking their money.

What made me decide to go ahead with the heads up match was his insistence that the money he was playing with was hardly a drop in the bucket compared with his executive salary. Had this not been the case, I would not have played him heads up and would have persisted in my efforts to stop him in the full NL game.

So, considering it was money that he could afford to lose, why wasn't my proposition akin to a pro in Vegas challenging Rene (Celine Dion's husband - a billionaire with a gambling problem) to a heads up match? What is it about the grief that my opponent feels, as opposed to the many other things that put opponents on tilt, that makes him off limits here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Two years ago I had a friend who broke up with his x-girlfriend. He called me and told me he really needed to get his mind off things because he felt semi-suicidal. That night we went out and talked a lot, but it didn't help him at all. Gradually during our talks, we got into discussing poker. During the conversation I told him how I was always in a "zone" when playing cards and that my mind was always focussed on the game when I played.

Well, that night he wanted to go to the cardroom because he said he wanted to see if the cards would help him ease his mind. He had zilch knowledge of texas hold'em, but knew how to play poker. He played every single hand that night. After the first two rounds of playing, I pulled him off and said gave him the old "you play like that your gonna drop a few g's" speech. He didn't care. He wanted to play every hand and he didn't care how much he lost or won. He just wanted to get his mind off the broken relationship. Surprisingly that night he only managed to lose about $600, but it really helped him mentally to get his mind off his x.

I took some of his money. I knew he was giving it away. Does that make me wrong to play with him knowing that I am full well taking advantage of him?

No. He knew consciously and responsibly what he got himself into. For that, I have no moral regret. What was more important was that as a friend, I helped him to get his mind of thinking about suicide. To me, that's what mattered. Not the money, not the fact he was a total fish that night, but the fact he didn't think about jumping off a damn bridge for a good few hours.

Re: Moral Dillema on PartyPoker
 

However, I believe Enon should have given back a bit to the man. Yes, what goes around comes around.

If my actions weren't wrong, why do you think I should give any back?

Re: Moral Dillema on PartyPoker
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't see anything wrong with gambling it up with him at a full table, where he is fair game for anyone

[/ QUOTE ]

I personally don't share this feeling that taking his money in a live game vs. heads up match is of great magnitudes worse (if you believe it wrong in the first place). I find it strange that you have no problem with taking his money in this full game but consider it 'raping' to get him one-on-one.

I also feel it is completely irrelevant to the morality of taking the donator's money whether it is equally dispered among other players.

[ QUOTE ]
where he can at least try to have his escapism

[/ QUOTE ]

He enjoyed the same escapism with me heads up when his mouse didn't leave the raise button, as when he pushed in preflop almost every hand at the full table.

[ QUOTE ]
and possibly not lose too much too quickly

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with you here that taking his money so quickly and leaving him with no more to gamble with that night is a relevant factor.

This got me thinking, how would you feel if I played him 3/6 or 5/10 heads up that allowed him to lose the money at the same pace as he would have lost it at the $100 NL table? Still rape?

Re: Moral Dillema on PartyPoker
 

[ QUOTE ]
Don't you think there is a HUGE difference between not getting up from a full table (ie. keep playing) and OFFERING to play the guy H/U to take advantage of his "possible" mental situation.


[/ QUOTE ]

No. Tell me why.

Re: Moral Dillema on PartyPoker
 

That doesn´t change the fact that vulgar application of power is silly and childish at it´s best, immoral or criminal at it´s worst.

Hmmm. Liberal?

Re: Moral Dillema on PartyPoker
 

[ QUOTE ]
That doesn´t change the fact that vulgar application of power is silly and childish at it´s best, immoral or criminal at it´s worst.

Hmmm. Liberal?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the best that your little 20 year old American college "who gives a [censored] what the rest of the world thinks" student mind can come up with ??

If having a conscience and a SPECK of compassion makes someone a Liberal in your world than I'm guessing that he probably is a Liberal.

busguy

Re: Moral Dillema on PartyPoker
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Don't you think there is a HUGE difference between not getting up from a full table (ie. keep playing) and OFFERING to play the guy H/U to take advantage of his "possible" mental situation.


[/ QUOTE ]

No. Tell me why.

[/ QUOTE ]

You took an active role in skinning him. Sitting at a full game is passive.

Re: Moral Dillema on PartyPoker
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Don't you think there is a HUGE difference between not getting up from a full table (ie. keep playing) and OFFERING to play the guy H/U to take advantage of his "possible" mental situation.


[/ QUOTE ]

No. Tell me why.

[/ QUOTE ]

Enon,

I appreciate that you were having second thoughts about how this all went down. This shows me that you probably have some sense of right and wrong (unlike a few posters in this thread). But if you cannot see ANY difference between continuing to play at a full table that just happened to have both you and the sorry sack at it, versus deciding to (whether his story is true or not) personally try to take maximize advantage of this guy by offering to play him heads-up, then I think I would just be wasting my words on you.

I'm not sure if you grew up in a "dog eat dog", I better "get mine before someone else takes it from me" household, but I didn't. Caring about your fellow man is what this world should (and in some societies it is) be about at least to a certain degree. Having a conscience doesn't make you a bad poker player (or if it does all this winning I've done must just be luck), it just gives you a shot at being a decent human being. I'm not saying that you shouldn't thank the good lord for giving you an opportunity to profit from this guy . . . but I believe there is a difference between taking a reasonable profit (staying at the full table) and taking advantage of this guy by extracting the maximum (taking him to a HU table) that you can.

my 2 liberal cents

[img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] busguy

Re: More thoughts and another question
 

Lawrence.

From one Canadian to another, you SHOULD be able to see the difference between your story and his.

Had you decided to play heads-up for $1000 a hand I would definitely question the quality of your friendship. But you didn't. You chose NOT to capitalize (to the fullest) on the opportunity presented to you. Sure you made some money off of Dr. Ng's perscribed therapy, but you didn't choose to fleese him like I think Enon did with this guy. And NO, friendship does not have anything to do with it. Greed and selfishness do.

[img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] busguy

Re: Moral Dillema on PartyPoker
 

I didn't say there is no room anywhere for compassion there's just no room for it at the poker table (or in business more generally). I have a problem with all this nonsense rhetoric that certain people should get special treatment because of X or Y. If the original poster had simply wrote, "I ran into a terrible player the other day, got him play me heads-up, and took 1700 off him." I doubt you people would be as put off by it. If you sit down at a poker table, you open yourself up to having your money taken by people that play better than you do. It doesn't matter if you're drunk, if your baby just died, if you're 16 years old, or if you're just plain stupid.

And BTW, it's not like this guy would have kept his $1700 if not for the heads-up match.

Re: Moral Dillema on PartyPoker
 

[ QUOTE ]
but he claimed that gambling on poker was theraputic for him and that the money he was dumping at the table was an amount he could afford to lose.

[/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ]
but he claimed that gambling on poker was theraputic for him and that the money he was dumping at the table was an amount he could afford to lose.

[/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ]
but he claimed that gambling on poker was theraputic for him and that the money he was dumping at the table was an amount he could afford to lose.

[/ QUOTE ]