am i cheating?
 

usually when im sitting in a seat in front of the dealer, i watch him and notice the bottom card(s) when he picks up and organizes the deck after the wash and before he starts his shuffle (theres not much else to do). last night i noticed a particular dealer that when he shuffled, the bottom card usually stayed on the bottom during the shuffle process (3 shuffles) and i could follow it toward the center of the deck after the cut. there were 3 or 4 occasions where this bottom card appeared on the board during that hand (holdem).
i realize this dealer has a flawed technique, but am i cheating or simply taking advantage? if i had a better talent for estimating the number of cards in the cut, i would have an even bigger advantage.
i also realize if anybody else knew i had a better than normal chance to know if a card was coming, theyd be mighty upset.

Re: am i cheating?
 

Being keen to noticing things is an imparative part of being a successful seasoned player. In this case (IMO) it would only be cheating if you and the dealer were in cahoots.

KC

Re: am i cheating?
 

That's not cheating, but the right thing to do is probably talk to the dealer about it (after his shift, away from the table).

PP

Re: am i cheating?
 

You are using information to which you are not entitled against the other players in the game. That fits my definition of cheating, but others may disagree. Would you want it done to you?

You should either tell the dealer or a floor person about this. Away from the table.

Re: am i cheating?
 

[ QUOTE ]
You are using information to which you are not entitled against the other players in the game. That fits my definition of cheating, but others may disagree. Would you want it done to you?

You should either tell the dealer or a floor person about this. Away from the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, if this occured during the course of playing BlackJack, would it be cheating (assume it's single or double-deck).

Re: am i cheating?
 

Long answer yes with an if, short answer no with a but.

Re: am i cheating?
 

MM has an essay about this in one of his Poker Essay's books.

In his opinion it is not cheating.

For another perspective see the movie Casino.

Paul

Re: am i cheating?
 

Interesting post, I don't have an answer. On a related note I play a home game with friends and beers all around and well, the dealing is terrible. I never purposely look to see the cards being flung high enough for me to see them but I see cards being dealt ALL THE TIME.

Now, me being the guy that I am I always immediately should out, "RED KING, saw it" to keep the game fair, afterall its with friends.

The thing is that I do it so regularily, maybe about a dozen or more times a night in a 3 hour game, that sometimes the players and especially the dealer get annoyed with me.

My response is always the same, "Would you rather I didn't say and used the info to my advantage? You should be thanking me."

Anyway, I don't really have a question I guess because I will always call out any cards I see in this game and I don't actively look for the cards, it just happens naturally as you usually look at the cards when they're being thrown at you (half the times they get thrown over the edge of the table anyway so I kind of have to watch).

I'm really rambling tonight, I should be studying and I'm using 2+2 to procrastinate. Anyone else have this problem when their friends deal horribly?

Re: am i cheating?
 

Its definate;y not cheating in bj
The dealer is a house employee and you are playing the house
Is it cheating when a dealer gives you bad advice? (which they usually, unintentionally are doing)

I think if you are playing against other people it is infact cheating such as in poker

Re: am i cheating?
 

Isn't this the same kind of thing where Daniel Negreanu took the pot when it was given to him by the dealer and opponent even though it was supposed to be a split pot? Someone elses mistake gives you an advantage. Poker is a game where you exploit other people's mistakes, in this case it's the dealers mistake. You're not doing anything the other players at the table can't also do. You're just observing your surroundings and gathering information. It would probably be best to go ahead and tell the dealer after he is done dealing but if you do spot this take advantage of it while you can. You're not 'cheating'.

Re: am i cheating?
 

I play in a dealers choice game sometimes that is kinda weird -$5 ante, limits $1-$20 on all streets. We usually always sit in the same seats every game. The guy that sits directly across from me always deals O8 when it is his turn. He deals out the pocket cards and then deals the board cards face down before any action. He turns the cards up at the appropriate time so the game plays the same. The problem is on many occassions he deals the board cards so high I see them. If I am not distracted I see at least 3 out of the 5 cards almost every time. Sometimes I know the whole board before a card is turned. I have told him many times (at the table where everyone can hear) that I saw cards. You know the funny part......they get annoyed at me and tell me to not look. I am NOT trying to look. They don't get annoyed at him for dealing poorly. Now, I just keep my mouth shut and play.

Re: am i cheating?
 

[ QUOTE ]
the right thing to do is probably talk to the dealer about it (after his shift, away from the table).


[/ QUOTE ]

I like this approach.

Re: am i cheating?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Its definate;y not cheating in bj
The dealer is a house employee and you are playing the house
Is it cheating when a dealer gives you bad advice? (which they usually, unintentionally are doing)

I think if you are playing against other people it is infact cheating such as in poker

[/ QUOTE ]
Funny the casinos take the opposite view. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: am i cheating?
 

didn't that pertain to BJ?

Re: am i cheating?
 

[ QUOTE ]
So, if this occured during the course of playing BlackJack, would it be cheating (assume it's single or double-deck).

[/ QUOTE ]

I remember reading in one of my Blackjack books that there was a case in Nevada where a casino caught a player taking advantage of a dealer who was flashing hole cards. The player was prosecuted for cheating and the judge dismissed the charge, ruling that it was the dealer's responsibility to protect the hole card and that the player was not violating the state cheating statutes by using the information. OTOH, I doubt that the player won enough at the blackjack table to pay his attorney's fees.

Re: am i cheating?
 

I don't particularly have ethical problems with people using dealer carelessness against the house. I do have a problem with people using dealer carelessness against other players in a poker game. It isn't their fault that the dealer is giving this guy information. In the blackjack case, it is absolutely the house's fault that dealer is incompetent.

Re: am i cheating?
 

[ QUOTE ]
You're not doing anything the other players at the table can't also do.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, he is. He says he does it when "sitting in a seat in front of the dealer", at least implying and pretty much stating that what he is doing cannot be done from other seats.

Re: am i cheating?
 

Shuffle tracking in Blackjack isn't considered cheating, although casinos will bar you if they think you are counting cards or using anything to give you an edge. All of this stuff is not illegal in Nevada so long as you are not colluding with the dealer. A player may use any information at their disposal to make a decision.

In poker I think it's unethical/cheating to use this to your advantage, and should talk to the dealer/floor person discreetly about it.

Similar situation.
 

Had an obviously new dealer in Detroit. I was in the 9 seat and the dealer was "rocking" the cards out of the deck. I could see quite a few as could anyone at my end of the table paying attention. I took a break from the table and mentioned it quietly to the room manager. He was appreciative and pulled the dealer from the table shortly thereafter. I am all for an advantage, but not like that.

Re: am i cheating?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Isn't this the same kind of thing where Daniel Negreanu took the pot when it was given to him by the dealer and opponent even though it was supposed to be a split pot? Someone elses mistake gives you an advantage.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not similiar at all in that Danial had no information that the other player didn't have. The other player messed up by mucking his hand. The game is between the players and the dealer should have no effect on the outcome of the hand.

Re: am i cheating?
 

If yo're not looking for these opportunities, you're not "doing your job". It's not your fault the dealer is sloppy. Everyone else has the same opportunity to watch for this type of information and they very well may be.

Another thing to watch is the cards as they come out of the dealer's hands; they often pitch them in way that some can be seen.

I'm not authorizing you to go out of your way to look at cards, but any information the dealer or another player gives you, is another edge for you.