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Another Case of Prima locking an Account without Evidence
Recently a top Danish no limit player became victim of Prima Poker Networks methods. This player is extremely well respected and has gained a reputation of being one of the absolute best online no limit hold´em players. Many of you will probably know this player as Pokergirl1 on Ladbrokes or _THESTAR _ on Prima Poker.
In this case Prima has not presented any kind of evidence whatsoever and has just denied to reopen the account claiming _THESTAR_ has received “bad money”. When playing as Pokergirl1 on Ladbrokes the were a lot of Danish followers, who saw how Pokergirl1 through skilled play has been beating the highest no limit games on the site for a long time now. The same has been the case at a Prima Poker room where all of a sudden this players account was locked containing around $60,000. Prima has refused to present any kind of evidence on this matter and also refused to reopen the account or pay any of the players winnings. A large part of the Danish poker community are now united through the Danish message board Pokernet in helping this player get his money back, and have started closing our accounts at the Prima Poker sites; 1) to show our support to this player, and 2) because we as poker players are repulsed by this kind of behaviour. We feel we cannot play to win big without the fear of having our accounts closed based on speculation from Prima Poker. We hope that the players here would show sympathy with the player and help by mailing the Prima Network poker rooms to show you will not tolerate unfair treatment of players and theft of winning players funds. Another thread about a player who has experience the same thing before can be found here: http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/...;o=14&vc=1 Best regards, Peter. |
Re: Another Case of Prima locking an Account without Evidence
Prima has refused to present any kind of evidence on this matter and also refused to reopen the account or pay any of the players winnings.
they will certainly give a reason. if this player won money from another who used a stolen card then TS. if the player is under investigation for colluding, and it turned out there was no collusion, the player will get their money. We hope that the players here would show sympathy with the player and help by mailing the Prima Network poker rooms to show you will not tolerate unfair treatment of players and theft of winning players funds. you want us to write our prima site and defend a danish player who has had their account locked?!? other than complete intoxication, why would anyone do this? please don't tell me that we should do it because it will happen to us one day. you had to go all the way back to the archives to find a similar situation. these things don't happen to honest players, and when they do, the site rectifies it. |
Re: Another Case of Prima locking an Account without Evidence
There's been at least 10 cases now of Prima unfairly locking accounts of good players with good reputations.
Almost all of the time the player wins some money from some other player who then does a chargeback. Then, Prima, convinced of its investigative prowess, locks that shark's account. I'm pretty sure Prima has about 3 chimpanzees that randomly pick high-stakes players who are winning and win a little bit of 'bad money' or go on too much of a hot streak it's clearly collusion. Prima is a good site for low and middle stakes games. But if you are a high stakes player, beware! |
Re: Another Case of Prima locking an Account without Evidence
That statement seems to assert just a tad too much perpetual infallibility on the part of poker sites, Granny. I think you spun it out in the favor of poker sites a little far this time.
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Re: Another Case of Prima locking an Account without Evidence
I don't get why I would vouch for some guy I have never heard of.
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Re: Another Case of Prima locking an Account without Evidence
not a surprise almost all the guys I played with in the past TwoGunC, jrdaniel, dako, Jaypee, and more have had their accounts locked I believe. I've played or watched all of them at Stars and they win on their own merit. Their is no number/email to reach prima either if they want your money they will take it. LOL in the beginning I didn't believe dako about his ~25k being confiscated but yes prima does whatever it wants.
All these players coming here and complaining can't all be cheaters it just happens too much at this site luckily mine wasn't even 1/10 of the 60k but it was still a significant amount of money. This should make some kind of news headline somewhere 60k is a decent amount of money |
Re: Another Case of Prima locking an Account without Evidence
GrannyMae,
This player has won the $60,000 over a period of time playing different players. If anything it should only be possible to withhold funds he won playing against whohever they think he has won the money from in an unfair manner. Also, why would this player cheat if he beats the regulars at the biggest no limit games on other sites. It doesn´t make any sence. We are not talking about any danish player. We are talking about a player whom most danish poker players know and respect. ps. your other condescending remarks have been ignored. Best regards, Peter. |
Re: Another Case of Prima locking an Account without Evidence
Granny,
I am aware of at least two (and possibly four) people who are big no-limit winners both live and online (UB/Stars/etc.) who have had funds in their accounts seized by Prima. In each of these cases, some amt of money was apparently won from someone using a bad credit card. However, the entire account was locked and seized. I say "possibly" four because there are only two where I am absolutely certain there was no collusion or shady stuff involved based on my personal knowledge of the situation. The other two look similarly unjust, but I do not know the individuals involved that well, so I could not 100% vouch for them, though I believe they got shafted as well. In each of these cases, Prima has simply refused to respond to customer support emails and has refused to provide any evidence or detailed reasons beyond "this account was involved in xxx and is thus closed." |
Re: Another Case of Prima locking an Account without Evidence
A Google search turns up this recent story as well:
Prima story in middle of page after Empire nonsense |
Re: Another Case of Prima locking an Account without Evidence
diablo,
the reasons are always told to the people. whether they are happy with it or not is irrelevant, and whatever spin they choose to put on it when whining is also irrelevant. the funds were gained by fraud. here is the email that the dane posted on rgp. seems like a pretty solid reason to seize funds if you ask me. also, i don't have to tell you of all people how poor of a business decison it would be to be engaged in this systematic corporate theft they are accused of. the 'hole' will return much more to them than stealing player funds for no reason. <font color="green">> >From: "Poker (Captain Cooks)" <poker@captaincookspoker.com> > >To: "Rebecca Walsh" <rebeccaw28@hotmail.com> > >Subject: RE: my account have been logged out. > >Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 13:05:06 +1000 > > > >Hi There Morten and Rebecca, > > > >I apologise for the delay and thank you for your patience. > >I have received final word from Prima Poker and your account is to remain > >locked. > >The funds that you received were brought into the network and passed to >you > >fraudulently. > >There will be now reversal of this decision and you will remain >permanently > >locked out of the network. > > > >I hope this can finally bring some closure to this issue. > > > >Kind regards > > > >Poker Management > >Captain Cooks Poker > >www.captaincookspoker.com </font> |
Re: Another Case of Prima locking an Account without Evidence
Granny,
This apparent business practice makes no sense to me either. But I do know of players who have had their accounts locked and received one communication that says basically "Your account was locked and seized due to fraud." Their efforts at getting any further detail from either their skin or Prima have been unsuccessful. Now, the suspicion in the two cases I am personally aware of is that in some game or other that they played, someone lost money that came from a stolen credit card or something. However, how can that merit closing the account and seizing all funds, much of which came from play against regular opponents in good standing? As I said, I personally know of two people w/ impeccable reputations in both live and online play that this has happened to. On the other hand, I know of tons of Prima players from 2+2 at 1000NL and lower who have never had any problems. But this seems to be a common occurrence in the higher limit games. It appears that a VERY high percentage of high-limit players at Prima end up with their accounts locked. Definitely a high enough percentage for people to at least do their homework before keeping too much money there. |
Re: Another Case of Prima locking an Account without Evidence
_THESTAR_ has won about 7K from the player with the "bad money", but prima has locked the account with 60K USD in it !
Still, this is an acceptable procedure while an investigation is in progress, but it is now over 2 months since the account was closed and _THESTAR_ haven't heard from Prima once unless he wrote them himself. Is this fair? /DTM |
Re: Another Case of Prima locking an Account without Evidence
[ QUOTE ]
> >The funds that you received were brought into the network and passed to >you > >fraudulently. > >There will be now reversal of this decision and you will remain >permanently > >locked out of the network. > > > >I hope this can finally bring some closure to this issue. > > > >Kind regards > > > >Poker Management > >Captain Cooks Poker > >www.captaincookspoker.com </font> [/b] [/ QUOTE ] GrannyMae, Would you accept this if your account was closed with 60k in it. I would think not. This statement contains no specific reason. It is the same standard response that are made to all the big players accused of cheating. It says nothing about this player. Peter. |
Re: Another Case of Prima locking an Account without Evidence
Why isn't there a similar problem of people winning "bad money" on partypoker, pokerstars, or UB?
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Re: Another Case of Prima locking an Account without Evidence
[ QUOTE ]
Why isn't there a similar problem of people winning "bad money" on partypoker, pokerstars, or UB? [/ QUOTE ] Prima allows people to deposit large sums of money very easily, way easier than on any of those sites. This results in what look like some very questionable and sleazy actions by the site(s). Party, of course, doesn't even have any big games. |
Re: Another Case of Prima locking an Account without Evidence
Granny, I usually like your no nonsense approach to these issues, but this time you are way of base. The e-mail from captaincookspoker.com doesn't explain anything. All the corrospondence was posted on a Danish poker forum ( link to relevant thread ) and nowhere do they give any reasonable - or even detailed - explanation that justify seazing the whole $60K.
If your bank told you that somebody transfered $7000 of unlawfully antained money to your bank account and then went on to close your account and take all your money, you wouldn't accept an answer like the one posted would you? |
Re: Another Case of Prima locking an Account without Evidence
I too agree that there reason was pretty weak,and
should be a little more specific. |
Re: Another Case of Prima locking an Account without Evidence
i'm staying out of it from this point rigoletto, and was not going to respond any more here. however, i have always had great respect for you so i will answer.
from what i understand, someone bought in a large amount of "bad" money and dumped it off. i would not be happy if i were the receiver of the dumped money and they froze my account while it was sorted out. however, this has been going on for 2 months, and they refuse to reopen the account. the emails look like capt. cooks were on the side of the player and was assuring the player renumeration when it was sorted out because the player appeared to be an innocent party. 2 months later they won't unfreeze the account 60k or no 60k. i won't harp on the issue that the Ts&Cs clearly state he loses the cash because it was 'bad' money. in this case it appears that they feel he was complicit. i am thinking of getting involved with TGC on some business, so i too am waiting to see how this fleshes out. i just know that microgaming is as honest as they get, and the claims that they did this just to steal was preposterous. i'll keep my mouth shut on this issue and convert to an observer from this post forward. |
Re: Another Case of Prima locking an Account without Evidence
I think microgaming started out as an online casino business and allowing credit cards which in turn were reverse charged when the user lost. Now my question is why they still allow card purchases or even such ridiculously large games. Or why prima has so much power. The skin I play at tried their best but they said ultimately prima has full power.
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Re: Another Case of Prima locking an Account without Evidence
One of the things that leaves me puzzled is that Prima Poker doesn´t contact the player. Prima lets it go through Captain Cooks (CC) and CC only get word from Prima that _THESTAR_ has recieved "bad money".
So when CC does not even have the evidence - and Prima Poker refuses any contact with the player, they never have to show any evidence. This is ridiculous. Someone please explain to me how this way of running a business can be considered fair to the players. Regards, Peter. |
Re: Another Case of Prima locking an Account without Evidence
But you have tpo ask, why these "incidents" only happen at Prima Poker?
I why is it impossible to get a reaction from the top of the pops? Hell, this is a lot of money and they don't do a thing! /DTM |
Re: Another Case of Prima locking an Account without Evidence
Granny
I'm not going to involve myself more in this, but I do want to point out some misperceptions of yours. That last e-mail from Capt. Cook tells that the matter has been decided upon and the player will not get ANY of his money back. So this is not a matter of them awaiting further investigation. They claim bad money was dumped to this player, but this only accounts for $7000 out of $60K. They offer absolutely no account of what happened or what information lead them to their conclusions. I think the question of all poker players should be: what will happen if win money from a player with a fraudulent credit card? Will my whole bankroll be at risk? I understand that Prima want to protect themselves and their players from fraud, but they also have an obligation to make the players feel confident of keeping a bankroll there. |
Re: Another Case of Prima locking an Account without Evidence
If you guys have all heard of X number of people getting their accounts frozen on prima for reasons you deem insufficient, then why dont you all just stop playing on prima. Seems pretty simple to me...
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Re: Another Case of Prima locking an Account without Evidence
I always thought the other people were guilty in some fashion and no business based on trust would lock your account without hard evidence. This has been a bad assumption. Mind you I was locked out unlocked then locked out. Is arbitrary when and on what grounds they decide to lockout an account.
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Re: Another Case of Prima locking an Account without Evidence
this only accounts for $7000 out of $60K
are you telling me that we have a $53,000 "taxi versus torstyn" type deal? only 7k was bad?? if this is the case, then further explanation is required by prima. on that i fully agree. |
Re: Another Case of Prima locking an Account without Evidence
[ QUOTE ]
this only accounts for $7000 out of $60K are you telling me that we have a $53,000 "taxi versus torstyn" type deal? only 7k was bad?? if this is the case, then further explanation is required by prima. on that i fully agree. [/ QUOTE ] It would seem so. _THESTAR_ got information that he had recieved 'bad money' from a particular player (whose handle was mentioned) He only played him in one session where he won $7-8000 from him and the account was closed right after that. In the preceding 10 days he was winning big in their 25/50 NL game and his bankroll was up to $60K. _THESTAR_ is a well known player in Denmark (where I'm originally from) and has been chrushing the big NL online games for years. I think it also speaks to his credibility that he waited 2 months for a final answer before he went public with any of this. I don't remember exactly how the TAXI case ended, but I do remember having the same concerns: that your bankroll can be at stake if you are unlucky enough to be in a game where somebody does something wrong. I also think the lack of detailed information from Prima to the _THESTAR_ is appalling. The essentially don't give him any chance to explain himself and no way for the rest of us to judge the situation. |
Re: Another Case of Prima locking an Account without Evidence
someone on rgp posted this info
Domain Name: primapoker.com Created on..............: 11 Dec 2001 08:43:49 Expires on..............: 11 Dec 2008 08:43:49 Registrant Info: Domain Escrow Services Limited Domain Administrator 1934 Driftwood Bay Belize City, 1000 BZ Phone: +44.7624496408 Fax..: +44.1481822895 Email: des-admin@curacaohosting.com Administrative Info: Domain Escrow Services Limited Domain Administrator 1934 Driftwood Bay Belize City, 1000 BZ Phone: +44.7624496408 Fax..: +44.1481822895 Email: des-admin@curacaohosting.com Technical Info: Domain Escrow Services Limited Domain Administrator 1934 Driftwood Bay Belize City, 1000 BZ Phone: +44.7624496408 Fax..: +44.1481822895 Email: des-admin@curacaohosting.com Billing Info: Domain Escrow Services Limited Domain Administrator 1934 Driftwood Bay Belize City, 1000 BZ Phone: +44.7624496408 Fax..: +44.1481822895 Email: des-admin@curacaohosting.com Status: Locked Domain servers in listed order: DESSPECIAL.VIANET.CA DNS.CURACAOHOSTING.COM DNS1.CURACAOHOSTING.COM " |
false reported fraud?
I was thinking about this thread earlier, and i wonder if these are actual cases of fraud. Lets say you tilt, blow 50 grand in a sitting and wake up the next morning with a brilliant idea. Report your card stolen, get your money back. Of course i dunno if this is what happened, but seems like a decent plan.
Now the credit card company is faced with picking up the tab and decides to contact prima to retrieve the "stolen" goods. Prima doesnt want to get on the bad side of the credit card companies so they seize the money and return it. THIS IS PURE SPECULATION. But i cant think of anyother reason why this series of events would go down. |
Re: Another Case of Prima locking an Account without Evidence
Some very good news is now that Captain Cooks has emailed the player, that because of the decision to take action and with support and help of friends the situation is now at a turning point and: "has
produced the desired affect of getting the powers that be involved." Regards, Peter. |
Re: Another Case of Prima locking an Account without Evidence
Prima is shady. I used to play there recreationally playing in the 50 and 100 NL games. I would play 50 hands and register for their freeroll. After winning it a few times I found that I couldn't enter the tourny. Support said that I hadn't played enough hands. I started to keep track of the # of hands I was playing and I would play 100 hands where I would see a flop and I still couldn't register. At first they would tell me I played only 23 hands of something ridiculus like that, then they said that they would email me the number of hands I had played, of course they didn't. After a while I got the picture I was banned. I don't know if it was because of how well I had done and they just didn't want me to play in them? That doesn't seem to make any sense. Why would they care? All I know is that I was not allowed to register and I played twice their requirement. I cashed out and haven't played their since. If they banned me from the toury on purpose, then it was a stupid move because now they don't get my rake. If they didn't ban me then they are stupid for having such crappy cust support and not answering my emails and solving the problem.
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Re: Another Case of Prima locking an Account without Evidence
i make much more money at prima than any other sites, thats why i dont stop playing. I do cashout often enough so i dont have to worry about keeping a big chunk of my BR there and I would recomend everyone not to keep more than say 5-10 buyin there at most. Just for safety reason.
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Re: false reported fraud?
The falsely reported fraud is no doubt a common occurence.
Many times people have remorse and claim they didn't make a purchase in all kinds of businesses. I'd say this is 75-80% of the fraud cases (actually it's fraud committed by the cardholder and not a stranger). However, in my forensic accounting work, I am starting to run into issues about how online gaming sites are becoming one of the easiest ways to launder and transfer money for criminals. There is little doubt that it happens. It's just a matter of how much and how fast it is growing. The anonymous and offshore nature is very appealing to criminals. I know that some in law enforcement are looking at the online sites and it may be that this money laundering concern becomes a real challenge to the online gaming industry. They will have to try to keep the crime out to keep the criminals out to keep the players' trust and avoid legislation that cuts off potential players. The real issue is whether other innocent players should be victimized. Without hard proof, the company should be eating the cost of the bad money that gets into the system through lax controls. |
Re: Another Case of Prima locking an Account without Evidence
Since my name has perked up in this i'll chime in.
I had my account (JayPee2) locked at prima twice, once for this reason and once for having 2 accounts at different casinos, each time having ~$10k in there. Getting my account reopened was a struggle, as seen here you can't contact prima and as seen here prima take ages and release no information at all, so you sit and wait while listening to your casino tell you the same crap over and over. It took about a month both times to get my account reopened. Since then i have put money back in and played for high stakes on prima, the reason i did is after proving my innocence twice to them and having a lot of backing from gaming club i felt safe there. However reading how this situation has been handled and reading how little effect the casinos have over prima i wont be playing there anymore. |
Re: Another Case of Prima locking an Account without Evidence
well I'm in the process of trying to get my account unlocked for 2nd time. Now after having cashed me out hundreds of times they now for whatever reason want picture ID and utility bill. I sent that in and according to them it's 4 months and unacceptable. Sent in newer ones and they said it wasn't clear enough and need me to send more documents. But I've got to admit a few thousand being taken away seems less painful when someone else got 60k taken away. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
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Re: Another Case of Prima locking an Account without Evidence
I also had a similar problem with Prima. I used the free $10 promotion, turned it into around $160, started playing several of their freerolls. After making it to the final table once, I was never able to get back into that freeroll. Always got the registration error, knowing I played well over the amount of hands required in the 24 hrs building up to the tourney. I refuse to play at any of their sites, regardless of how juicy the promotion sounds.
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Re: false reported fraud?
[ QUOTE ]
Lets say you tilt, blow 50 grand in a sitting and wake up the next morning with a brilliant idea. Report your card stolen, get your money back. [/ QUOTE ] You would have to sign up and deposit from a "public" computer for this to work. This would imply that you were planning the "fraud" from the start. You obviously could not use your credit card from your home computer, have a bad night, and report it stolen the next day. |
Re: Another Case of Prima locking an Account without Evidence
Opened a CityPoker.com account last week. Did $500 deposit and got $100 bonus. Played a $5 or $10 SnG and some $.10/.20 NL as well as some .25/.50 limit.
Haven't been able to log in since Friday. I called support on Friday - "We're upgrading our software that's why you can't log in" On Saturday I still couldn't log in so I e-mailed 2 different addresses on the support page. On Sunday after hearing no response I went the live chat route - "Hmm, I'm not sure why you can't log in, I'll have to send this off to main support and e-mail you when I get the result". Today (Tuesday) I still can't log in so I try live chat again. Please wait for a site operator to respond. You are now chatting with 'Mary' Mary: Welcome to CityPoker.com, How may I help you? you: It's been 5 days now since I've been able to log in you: I've called, e-mailed, and chatted and no one has told me why Mary: May I have your User ID? you: NNNN Mary: Please give me a moment to review your account Mary: Mr. xxx let me inform you that we are no saying that you made fraud but your account number is investigating for our fraud department you: fraud for winning like $25? That's ridiculous Mary: as soon as they send us the answer we will contact you back you: Let your supervisor know I think this is one of the worst sites I've played at and I've been playing online poker for 5 years now you: They could have at least contacted me to let me know. So I guess I'll just sit around and wait. you: bye Um, Prima sucks. |
Re: Another Case of Prima locking an Account without Evidence
Bradley, what happened to you is just plain rediculous. I play alot on Prima, but after reading all this, I'm starting to have second thoughts.
It just seems not worth the risk. |
Re: Another Case of Prima locking an Account without Evidence
Agreed... Time to withdraw all funds from account.
Does anyone know what the final words were in the Dako et. al. case? |
Re: Another Case of Prima locking an Account without Evidence
Totally not worth the risk. Thankfully, I've never played at Prima. Unless they change their practices, they're going to lose a lot of business once word gets around.
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